Illegal Immigrants Turn Sonoran Desert into Landfill

Hardy this is the side of illegal immigration and unsecure borders that is never mentioned.

Today the President, all but blamed the Republicans for not having comprehensive immigration reform passed. He said he didn't have 60 votes. I think he had 60 votes last year.

Why can't they be honest and state that it's too close to the mid-terms to start discussing this explosive issue. I guess Health Care was more important.

I agree... Obama had plenty of time, and since when did any President in the past turn away from what needed to be done if they didn't have "60 votes"? The truth is, no President, besides Oh-Bummer, has ever had 60 votes in the Senate.

I see some of our resident liberals have been by to give me a down arrow... *LOL* I love it. Too bad they're not honest enough to leave a comment, but then again, what can they say? They support the environment, so they'd look like hypocrites... of course, sometimes appearances aren't in the least deceiving... ROFLMAO!

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the down arrows. Oh well go figure I had them yesterday on a Canadian soldier killed in the suicide attack in Kabul. Go figure. Oh yeah I had a pile on my Alberta Wildfire Report. It just makes me shake my head.

Actually I don't agree with down arrows. You either like the story or not. I you don.t like it, don't recommend it.

Yeah... pretty sad, but at least Amal, and Punditty were kind enough to demonstrate that they at least bear the strength of their convictions; I may never completely agree with most of their arguments, but I respect their willingness to express them.

You're right...having the immigration system we have is also hurting the enviroment.

Now I'll be waiting for conservatives to get behind all anti-pollution legislation being proposed...including the opposition of the porposed wall.

This argument would have a little more weight to it if most conservatives actually gave a crap about pollution and didn't use it as an excuse to waste money on building a wall.

Hardy,

This is a very good report, and I am glad to see the environmental impact of the immigration issue being emphasized.

This is yet another reason why the U.S. needs a comprehensive guest worker program exclusive to Mexico, where would-be laborers don't have to sneak in furtively and trash the land in the process. The key is expanding the opportunities for Mexicans who want to work here in the U.S. legally.

This requires much more than heavy-handed enforcement of a race-based law. If there were a better guest worker program for the states bordering Mexico, it would be much easier to check the "papers" of the people and corporations now hiring the non-U.S. citizens when American should be getting hiring priority.

I think a lot of supporters of the Arizona law think that those of us who oppose it are not acknowledging the immigration problem. It is a very real problem, and as some conservatives rightly said, Obama should have tackled immigration as Job 1 because it directly affects the health care system.

I agree with you Punditty. The president said today that a big part of the problem is that US businesses want cheap labor and they are willing to hire illegals to do it, because other people don’t want to. Conservatives who think U.S. citizens are angry with illegals, because they take all the jobs are deluding themselves.

If Americans were willing to do the back-breaking work in the fields/farms for minimum wage (if that), than illegal immigration would never have ballooned to the problem it is. Until businesses are fined and held accountable for doing it, there won’t be any incentive for them to change.

A guest worker program makes sense to help both immigrants and businesses, but it’s time to stop putting all the blame on people who risk their lives to come here for the chance at better lives for themselves and their families.

Today, one conservative idiot on Billie's post suggested that once their unemployment runs out, that U.S. citizens will take the hard-labor jobs and prove that illegals are not needed in this country. Some people have smaller IQ's than their shoe size.

Immigration is just one of the major problems that Obama has on his plate, thanks to the complacency and ineptitude of Team Bush/Cheney. They left office with two wars raging and 1.3 trillion in debt. I bet there are times he wishes Hillary would have won.

Dragonfly said:
"I agree with you Punditty. The president said today that a big part of the problem is that US businesses want cheap labor and they are willing to hire illegals to do it, because other people don’t want to. Conservatives who think U.S. citizens are angry with illegals, because they take all the jobs are deluding themselves."

I have to say that I think it may the President who's deluding himself; actually, though, I'm pretty sure he's sharp enough to know the score. He's just pandering the to the President of Mexico, just as he panders to everyone else, including the American public.

A country with nearly 10% unemployment doesn't need an "guest workers" program. Economics 101 tells us that if there aren't enough workers to do a particular job, at a particular rate of pay, the employers will historically raise the rate of pay until they have the workers they need, because the job needs to be done. Will this raise the cost of some products and services? Almost certainly, but it will be putting money in to the pockets of people who will spend it here, rather than send it home to Mexico, and reduce our unemployment.

I don't know why this would be a problem for liberals or progressives who usually want to tax the stuffing out of everything and in the end, bring about the same result...

I've taken enough hard labor jobs in my life to know people will do almost anything when they need money; when I was younger, I worked side by side with Mexican illegals for sub-minimum wages because it was all I could find at the time.

The reason Obama has so much on his plate is that all he does is shuffle it from side to side to make it appear something is happening.

Illegals aren't the victims; US citizens are the real victims, both because they have to pay the cost, and because illegals keep the wages for certain types of jobs unrealistically low.

I'd rather see a better wage for legal citizens than support substandard wages and exploitation for illegals.

"This requires much more than heavy-handed enforcement of a race-based law."

Sorry bud, but I have to say that at nearly 10% unemployment, we need more guest workers like we need another stock market crash. Have you read the law? If so, I'd love so hear which parts, specifically, that you disagree with. Is it the part that says if a person is stopped or detained lawfully, the police officer has the right to check on their immigration status if they have a reasonable suspicion?

If person has a lawful Arizona ID, or a tribal ID, they are automatically assumed to be a US citizen. If they don't the police should run them through multiple databases anyway, no?

Nobody is going to be stopped and asked for "papers" because the text also mandates that all actions be consistent with federal immigration law, and that the civil rights of all parties be protected. Do you object to that? Is that race-based? It's certainly not heavy handed...

Amal - I am a proud conservative and I am very concerned about the environment. I would also bet I am "greener" than 99% of the environmentalists that post on this site.

I also know the cap and trade legislation has NOTHING to do with stimulating our economy and I stand opposed to it because it is the equivalent to shackling manufacturing even more and damaging our infrastructure beyond repair. We will lose our foothold in the world - that which we have left - and we will see nothing in return for this. Environmentally, -what we will do is become a nation behind that of others and those others are not exactly human rights "friendly."

You say it would give more weight to his argument if conservatives actually gave a crap about pollution - and that's a crap line actually.

If you'd read the proposals, and you had worked in the environmental arena (which I actually have and do) you would not look at this proposal the same way.

It's easy to say it's for the environment - but it isn't and the biggest issue progressive's have is their inability to look beyond the closed window.

Good article Hardy... Build the wall...then reform...not the other way around.

Punditty - excellent comment on the healthcare reform - but it wasn't number one - or even seriously considered because of the healthcare bill. There was no other reason for the delay.

Guest programs can only extend so far - we need to stop the mass influx of people into the country illegally first.

Like everything in Washington, if it is done the other way around - the promise will never be kept.

Maryann,

If the rest of the conservatives had views like yours...and actually cared about the environment like you...something would have happened in the 8 years W. was incharge.

But absolutely nothing happened those 8 years. To the contrary things got worse...conservatives have an awful record with the environment...which is sad considering environmentalism is extremely close to conservatism.

Build the wall...it just means more will use tunnels instead.

Absolutely nothing happened in 8 years. GW Bush supported amnesty, Congress defeated it.

Republicans did not control both houses during the Bush years - but Democrats sure did the first year of the Obama administration and they've been the dominate party in the Congress since 2006.

Democrats hold no record for passing sweeping climate legislation either.

Well, gee, amal, sorry if I stepped on any liberal toes. I've spent time in the Sonoran desert, both on this side of the border, and on the other side of the border. It's one of the most magnificent places on earth; a place I genuinely care about. The reason the people are still coming across and trashing it is because they can; they don't give a damn about anti-pollution legislation. Time to get real.

They don't give a damn because they're already breaking the law, and they don't do much for the environment on the other side of the border either. The main roadways are scattered with litter, cans, etc.

As far as giving a crap about pollution, I'm willing to bet that I donate more money to environmental causes than you do. I actually support them rather than just talking trash. I'm not rich, but I do love this planet. I just don't jump on any idiot environmental boat until I know it's a real issue because liberals scream about everything, so I listen to none of it, do my own research and then take the action I feel is appropriate, which is more than a hell of a lot of people on the other side of the isle.

To a reasonable person, any argument which is documented and is a real issue should carry equal weight regardless of the messenger. Just because I'm the one who chose to put it out in public doesn't make it any less disgusting.

You can't provide any real argument, because there isn't one, so I'm a little disappointed you choose to be intellectually dishonest and just attack somebody else...

At least you had the resolve to actually comment, and I respect that. The hollow silence from liberals and environmentalists on this issue has been deafening. It's time to address the environmental impact of the illegal immigration issue. It can be cleaned up, but in another month or so, it will just as bad... it won't stop until the illegals are stopped, and Arizona's approach will at least stem the tide.

"The reason the people are still coming across and trashing it is because they can; they don't give a damn about anti-pollution legislation. Time to get real."

I didn't say they care about environmental legislation...I said most conservatives don't give a damn. Not if it means that the business sector, just as everyone else, would have to make some changes they don't like so that we have a cleaner world.

"They don't give a damn because they're already breaking the law, and they don't do much for the environment on the other side of the border either. The main roadways are scattered with litter, cans, etc."

Oh you must think places in the U.S. are clean...if there weren't criminals, volunteers and organizations (including street cleaners funded by taxes)picking up garbage from the side of highways and sidewalks there would be more trash on our streets than there is in Mexico.

...Man, don't we just love bashing other countries...especially poor countries. "Hey-take a look at Mexico...they have trash on their streets. And they're poor. Ha! Their people won't stay there either...they wanna live here."



So...as always I'll have to explain myself and repeat what I've said repeatedly...you and Maryann are different. You don't fit my generalization of "conservatives" and so when I write "most conservatives", you two, and others like you, are the exclusions.

I honestly know you and Maryann actually walk the walk. I got that. And don't assume anything about me you don't know. I think I do enough about pollution and the environment. I'm a smart consumer.


That being said...my criticism is that linking illegal immigrants to "horrible terrible" criminals is pathetic.

Being an "illegal" is a misdemeanor...if we were talking about property damage, in Arizona, if the damage done was under $250 dollars, it's a misdemeanor.

They aren't murderers and rapists. And while crossing the border, the least of their worries is to worry about where to throw away the their water bottle.

Yes the pollution is horrible...yes this means we need immigration reform...yes that reform will mean better border protection...no, wall is an awful idea because it won't work and it will waste a lot of money and ruin the image of America; it will only give more power to the criminals that traffik...we will also need some sort of "path of citizenship" not only for some of the people that are already here but also a more pragmatic pathway for those trying to get here legally.

Many of the people coming here illegally, already tried to come here legally, the quotas are far too low. A workers program would be nice also.

Something more than "lockem up and deport'em". We've been doing that for a while...it's expensive and it hasn't worked. And it adds to the side issue of people viewing minorities as criminals.



The problem with this post is that the pollution isn't the problem; part of the problem is Mexico's economic state, part of it is federal funding and will, part of the problem is big employers, part of the problem is War on Drugs, part of the problem is our immigration policy.

The pollution is just a symptom.

"That being said...my criticism is that linking illegal immigrants to "horrible terrible" criminals is pathetic."

I agree, and never made that connection.

"Being an "illegal" is a misdemeanor...if we were talking about property damage, in Arizona, if the damage done was under $250 dollars, it's a misdemeanor."

The total property damage and cleanup cost reaches into the billions of dollars, both to private and public lands

"They aren't murderers and rapists. And while crossing the border, the least of their worries is to worry about where to throw away the their water bottle."

Which is why they have no business here. The bottom line is that they're trashing the desert and it has to stop; the feds wouldn't do anything so Arizona decided to do it on it's own.

Amal,
I wouldn't ever bash Mexico; the Mexican people are among the finest I've ever met. They're hard working and never forget a kindness shown them. I absolutely support legal immigration.

Have you ever been farther into Mexico than the border towns or the resorts?

"... part of the problem is Mexico's economic state, part of it is federal funding and will, part of the problem is big employers, part of the problem is War on Drugs, part of the problem is our immigration policy.

The pollution is just a symptom."

As is everything else - Mexico's government is corrupt and dishonest and they rely on the United States to remain this way. As long as the border is open, more will try to escape into this country - as would any person.

It is not that people dislike immigration - it's that people want it controlled, so that we can support it and function as a nation. We cannot keep supporting millions who cross illegally.

There are many good people who cross that border - no argument there... BUT, there are criminals too. We have our own criminals and they are costly. We shouldn't be paying for those that cross and commit crimes.

The humanitarian question then becomes they will likely return as soon as they are sent back because Mexico will not address its own issues of corruption - and we keep ignoring it.

Hardy, I agree that the trash situation is deplorable. Even worse: the desert is littered with thousands of human corpses, including children and mothers. A better world must be possible.

Not that I doubt the photo, but can you provide verification of authenticity? I don't see a photo credit given. If I'd forward this, I'd want to cite the original source. Thanks.

Heya Billie,
Try these on for size:
This on is particularly well written, and very sympathetic to immigrants, while clearly stating the problems:
http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/EvergreenEnergy/oakesr.html

More pictures, but considerably less biased:
http://thereaganwing.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/recent-pictures-of-our-beautiful-sonoran-desert/

The issue is, the damage is being done, and it won't stop until the flow of illegals stop. I have a very special love for the Mexican people; I've been into the interior of Mexico on a couple of occasions and found the people I encountered to be among the most open and amiable I've ever met.

I'm not anti immigration; I'm against illegal immigration and guest worker programs, unless they're tied directly to the unemployment rate in the United States, with strictly enforced quotas.

With all the bodies, human refuse, clothing, drug paraphernalia, soiled diapers,etc. being thrust on the fragile ecosystem of the Sonoran desert, it has to stop; period.

In some of the border areas, a lot of the land is privately owned; when, in the past, the owners have allowed their stock to roam freely, they have now begun putting up fences, not to keep out wild animals, but to prevent the absolute rape of their property by wandering illegals passing through and discarding their garbage along the way.

I know you would never condone this type of action by citizens of this country, how is it any different when the perpetrators are here illegally to begin with, and are keeping the wages for jobs that could be filled by Americans, unnaturally low, especially with our rate of unemployment.

Illegal immigration is toxic to the economy, the environment, and to the immigrants themselves. They're not wanted; they're not needed; they need to stay in Mexico until they can enter legally on our terms, not their own. Living in the United States is not a right, but a privilege, a privilege you request, and may or may not be granted.

My brother, who lives in Arizona, sent me photographs a year or more ago showing what you did, Hardy. But, I also lived in Mexico for a couple of years, and not at the resort areas that most Americans go to. I lived in a small town in central Mexico. The Mexicans, for whatever reason, don't really care about litter. Their roadside ditches are full of trash, in the valleys and up in the pine-forested mountains. It's a beautiful country, but the average Mexican just doesn't seem to care. I don't get it, but that's the reality.

Yep... been there and seen it myself. I'll never understand it; I don't, however, want it happening here...

Hardy,

I would say you did link illegal immigrants to a crime...just not a serious one like rape and murder...but another misdemeanor, littering. If a million people illegally cross the border a year...there's bound to be garbage and it's bound to pile up if no one cleans it.

"The total property damage and cleanup cost reaches into the billions of dollars, both to private and public lands"

That may as well be, but it's not done by an individual. You can't charge everyone protesting if three of them broke glass fronts, two of them graffitti'd a wall and 5 of them pissed on the sidewalk. You catch and charge the ones that did it.

Being illegal is a misdemeanor, littering in a misdemeanor, walking through someone's private property is a misdemeanor...they are still not serious crimes. But when you show a picture like that and say "illegals did it"...well it's, at least to me, annoying to see yet another article showing how horrible the people trying to illegally work and live in the U.S. are.

I just don't see them as that big of criminals that everyone tries to paint them as.

We have third world countries to the south of us...Us being the world's richest country...this immigration problem is to be expected. The question I have is why are the immigration policies of the U.S. sooooo based on a fantasy world where we can keep people out?

We can't. Even with a wall. Even with increased policing, millions will cross that border somehow.

But again, I'm not saying we don't need better border control...I just don't believe that the wall idea is good.

And the pollution is a symptom...


Just a question for you...what exactly are you looking for in the immigration reform?

I personally would like to see a border patrol strengthened. If I were President I would do this with our Armed Forces by withdrawing them from the Middle East and placing them on the border.

I think corporations who outsource should face serious fines and companies that employ illegals or are found to not check the status - should face fines as well - and stiff ones at that ---- STIFF ENOUGH that they face going out of business for not following the law. I think the E-Verify system should be enforced alone with real-ID and not Pass ID which is a watered down "PC" form of real ID.

I support a mild form of guest programs for people already here. There must be a job for the person and one that cannot be filled by out of work Americans because the company wants to avoid taxes.

An article by Robert Rector discusses the true cost of illegal immigration "The Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants to the U.S. Taxpayer" and we (however mean this may be) truthfully no longer have the means to open the flood gates to millions of unskilled family members... so I would suggest there needs to be a limit (and a firm one) on qualifications for family members obtaining legal citizenship through the people that obtained their citizenship by illegally entering the country.

I do not think entitlement programs should be extended to people unless they are citizens and I know we will disagree there.

In other words - I'm never going to be President.

Maryann,

Coming from a thirdworld country myself...it's extremely easy to look down on the corruption in these countries, but we have to understand that our own government is extremely corrupt as well...just in different ways.

But yes the Mexican government is corrupt and it is poor...some of the things we want it to do, it just can't do. So what are we going to do to help them?





"Absolutely nothing happened in 8 years. GW Bush supported amnesty, Congress defeated it."

And conservatives hated it...the Bush immigration policies failed because of conservatives.

"Republicans did not control both houses during the Bush years - but Democrats sure did the first year of the Obama administration and they've been the dominate party in the Congress since 2006."

And they've had almost everything filibustered or threatened to be filibustered. And you have to excuse the years 2006 and 2007 and 2008 because Bush was still President and he was not going to have any sort of pollution control legistlation pass.

And Obama's been in office for a year and a half, almost, he's getting to immigration...it's only been a year and a few months...when did Bush tackle immigration? When did Bush tackle healthcare? or climate change or just regular old pollution?

"Democrats hold no record for passing sweeping climate legislation either."

No, they hold a record for trying and then failing to pass sweeping climate legislation. Because the bestest of politicians with the dirtiest of tricks are on the Republicans' side.




I'm supposed to make a sacrifice in order to make the world a bit cleaner...so are you, so is the government...by why do conservatives have a heartattack when it's suggested that corporations would have to make sacrifices too?

If a billion dollar industry has to make a million dollar change...conservatives just can't let that happen...everyone should sacrifice, besides businesses.

"And conservatives hated it...the Bush immigration policies failed because of conservatives."

How is that possible...? Bush never has anywhere near number of votes available to Obama, and he won't do anything because he doesn't have 60 votes... what a load of buffalo biscuits.

If Obama can't do anything without a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, which, by the way, almost no President has ever had before, he's a complete washout...

I am not opposed to corporations making changes but the legislation doesn't hurt big corps. That's a myth. Take GE for example - they will outsource to China - who will not have the same regulations (hey, they are already doing it because they are already cheaper.) There is no safety net to prevent big corporations from doing this at all.

Add on the burden to American small business and I guarantee you they will disappear and without small business in this country - you're right back where you were - in a third world country.

Another good report, Hardy, but I have to say I believe you and both the "liberal" and "conservative" commenters are missing the real point of illegal immigration or attempts to make legal immigration from Mexico, and, to a lesser extent, from Central America easier.

The "North American Union" is not a new idea. Seed planting can be found at least as far back as 1941-42 with the publication of a map calling for a "New World Moral Order." Seeking world government by first creating regional superstates is the goal of those who compiled it. One of those superstates on the map is the United States of America which included all of North and Central America. I believe the immigration, both legal and legal from south of the border, is designed to create a Fifth Column here to make merger with Mexico easier.

You can see the map and my take on it at:
http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com/2008/08/americas-ruling-party.html


As far as Democrat vs. Republican, liberal vs. conservative is concerned, it's a charade. On the national level the only difference is in campaign promises, which, of course, are always broken. Naturally, the "other side" is always blamed.

For anyone interested, you can see good evidence that we have only one party in America and it is globalist:
http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com/2008/08/americas-ruling-party.html

I hope to gradually copy some of this information as reports in AllVoices, but Verizon DSL and ClearWire high speed internet disservices have proven a disaster and I'm back to using the library computer.

You're absolutely correct. Here's a little food for thought:

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/sw4qw/#one

I find it very compelling...

"I would say you did link illegal immigrants to a crime...just not a serious one like rape and murder...but another misdemeanor, littering. If a million people illegally cross the border a year...there's bound to be garbage and it's bound to pile up if no one cleans it."

Which is exactly the point I was making; the desert is being turned into a landfill, and as long as the train keeps running, the desert will continue to be destroyed...

It's not about anything else. Time for it to stop, by any means necessary. Fairness isn't an issue. Excluding illegals from the US is no more unfair than having them dump their trash and refuse all over a pristine desert.

Before we can offer any type of amnesty (which I'm not against under certain conditions) we have to plug the border securely.

Once we can be certain that nobody is coming across the border, we can work our conditions for amnesty for those already here. As long as the border is wide open, that's not possible.

Some type of fencing, or other extreme deterrent is needed. Because nothing else will stop the flow.

Reagan supported amnesty, but the never followed through in closing the borders. For that reason, I won't support any type of amnesty until I know the borders are absolutely secure, by whatever means it takes. A closed border means a closed border.

Guest workers should only be allowed on a very strict quota, directly related to the level of unemployment in the US. At 10% we don't need any... period.

The way wages increase for any particular job is through the process of supply and demand; if there is a demand for a certain type of worker and none are around, the wages increase until people start applying. I've seen it happen in the construction industry many times. When the employers pay enough to interest unemployed US citizens, the jobs will be filled.

Any employer who is found to be employing illegals should be fined 10% of their gross profit from the preceding year for their first offense. If they are flagged for a second offense they would be flagged for 20%, along with possible prison time, up to 5 years, unless they can show a compelling reason why that shouldn't be the case.

If the company is a corporation, since responsibility begins at the top, the CEO would be liable for the prison time.

"BTW, I'm having second thoughts about the "wall." After the Healthcare Obamanation swings into full effect, we Americans might be trying to sneak across the border to get healthcare in Mexico."

Actually, there are places in Mexico I'd love to live, away from the resort towns, and the border towns, on the Sea of Cortez... you can live very comfortably on Social Security or a slight pension...