We can not listen to McChrystal the Afghanistan mission was against Al Qaeda not to take on Islam!

James, I respect your (liberal) worldview. But Biden is not the man to trust relative to national security issues.

On many of the most important and controversial issues of the last four decades, Biden has built a record based on bad assumptions, misguided analyses and flawed judgments.

In the 80s he was a fierce opponent of Reagan's Cold War strategy.

In 1990, he voted against the first Gulf War, asking: "What vital interests of the United States justify sending Americans to their deaths in the sands of Saudi Arabia?"

In 2006, after having voted three years earlier to authorize President Bush's Iraq war, Biden argued for the partition of Iraq, which would have led to its crack-up.

Then in 2007, Biden opposed President Bush's troop surge in Iraq, calling it a "tragic mistake." It turned out to be quite the opposite. Without the surge, the Iraq war would have been lost, giving jihadists their most important victory ever. He proved to be wrong once again.

Now in 2009, after campaiging in 2008 that Afghanistan was the "moral" and "righteous" war, he's not so sure (now that casualties are mounting).

No problem Jeff! I was an opponent of Reagan's strategy too. I was against the Gulf war and Iraq.

I was against Bush but it only stands to reason because he was following Reaganism. I find it hard to criticize anyone that voted for Iraq because Cheney Bush and Rove would have had them ostricized as communist and anti American.

I hate to say it but I do not trust any of their opinions but I trust Biden more than Bush and I trust Obama to listen to all advice weigh it and do the right thing! We hope!

"I was against the Gulf war and Iraq"
really..!!

:D

few people say that from where you live
thx

i enjoyed reading it

You're Welcome! It is hard because a few of my sons are career military. Makes for interesting conversation for sure!

factual and reallistic analysis. Good on you.

to monitor them with drones ,would be brilliant, listen up pentagon..and give this man a well-deserved medal !

Thanks guys! Really, we are making a mess of this. We are going about it all wrong. I pray that Obama pays a lot of attention to Max Cleland he is right on. Man I am listening to McCain right now say send those troops now. Hell we cood add a million and it would do nothing but worsen this! Hell a few of my sons are in this!

You know rondon, those drones are operated from White Sands. It is safer to watch them from there and press a button if need be. User more drones!

I better shut up but first right from the get go they wanted us off their soil so what do we do we attack them and want to add more troops. Our job is done get out and see what happens!

Mr. Joiner,

I just joined ALLVOICES, with high hopes I might add. However; running head long in to your recent post titled “We can not listen to McChrystal the Afghanistan mission was against Al Qaeda not to take on Islam!” I am more than dissapointed.

I had hoped that this format would provide for a more even exchange of ideas and be at least a bit free from the acromonious exchanges we see in literally all of the current media today.

No such luck.

In your blog you “say” you are a Patriot to boil it down to one word.

You do recall the famous Samuel Johnson quote. 1775 ‘Patriotism in the last refuge of a scoundrel’. That goes for all parties Jimmy. 8-)

Your use of the pejorative when referring to anyone not accepting the liberal world view is overwhelming and very much hurts your credibility.
That you can get all green credibility bars is way beyond me!

For starters President Obama Picked General McChrystal so how he’s being tied to the previous administration is beside the point. Our Elected President Picked HIM! So blathering on about Cheney’s assassin squad and tying McChrystal to the former administration is making me wonder who are you faulting here? The Current President is Obama right? He picked McChrystal right? So what does Cheney have to do with it?

“ignored and reeducated as to what the mission is”
Hey… President Obama gave him the mission, McChrystal is tasked with giving our Current president his opinion of the situation on the ground…that’s why he was given the job. I can’t believe you used to be in the Air Force! You have heard of chain of command right?

Did you happen to catch 60 min. last night? Did you hear what McChrystals second in command said? We leave Afghanistan and Al Qaeda goes back to running the show there. That gives them a safe base to attack from. That safe base must be eliminated.
Get it?

Afgahanistan DOES NOT BELONG TO THE TALIBAN.

I do agree with you that the Bush administration mismanaged Afgahanistan!
But Two wrongs don’t make a right!
We can’t go about this in half measures we have to be All or bail which is the current administrations two regretable choices.

I don’t want to respond line by line to all your liberal world view statements as this email is already too long.
However,
Your use of terms such as;
“Cheney’s assassin squad” I can’t even address how wrong this inference is.
“reeducated” what… you can’t stand an opposing opinion? You know WHO reeducated people?
Ya’ think about that next time you use that term.
“Our soldiers did their job” Hell we won’t even let them return fire most of the time, (See 60 Min this last Sunday) have you actually talked to anyone that has served over there?
“the forever war Bush set up” Again Bush is Gone! Get over it!
“war mongering Republicans” Ok, I’m calling BULL SHIT here Jimmy. Your either part of the solution or part of the problem.

As Judge Judy would say, “Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining Sonny!”..

I’m seriously considering whether or not this ALLVOICES forum is truly unbiased or even worth my valuable time.

Oh…BTW

God Bless American
Got a problem with that too? 8-)

That's a particularly hostile post.

"Your either part of the solution or part of the problem." - Not the best way to communicate how it is you feel about people who disagree with you. But through all this, I don't see what you propose? To stay there and keep fighting an unending war, or to stay there and rebuild the country, or to stay there and kill everyone.

"“reeducated” what… you can’t stand an opposing opinion?" - sounds like you.

"have you actually talked to anyone that has served over there?" - jms has two sons both serving there right now.

“the forever war Bush set up” Again Bush is Gone! Get over it!" - It's been less than a year and Bush's ills are being swept under the rug. We are living his legacy right now.

Hi Changez,
Thank’s for playing along.

RE: “That's a particularly hostile post.”
It’s a direct response to Mr. Joiners post so that’s who set the tone.


RE: "Your either part of the solution or part of the problem." - Not the best way to communicate how it is you feel about people who disagree with you.

I actually Agree with Mr. Joiner about Bush. And the Quote “Your either part of the solution or part of the problem” is a direct reference to the solution which is not to do things in half-measures.
We need to give the military what they are asking for, or pull them out. There are no half-measures. That’s what costs us American Lives.

RE: But through all this, I don't see what you propose?
True enough I need to be more clear on this, I propose we give the people we hired the support they are entitled to. That is if the man in charge in Afgahnistan General McChrystal say’s “I need this or I need that.” We give it to him. Not second Guess him.
BTW this “Second Guessing” people we hire to do jobs for us is called “Micro-Managing” It’s destroyed a lot of very good companies and it can destroy this country. Micro-Managers are BAD MANAGERS. A Good Manager Trusts his people and gives them what they ask for to do the job.

RE: To stay there and keep fighting an unending war, or to stay there and rebuild the country, or to stay there and kill everyone.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here Changez? If you’re saying you don’t want to rebuild the country, I’m sorry but that is what it will take to win this war and that is what it took to really win any war. Any good student of history should be able to see that. We occupied Japan for over 15 years after WWII. We started shooting at them then we started shooting with their cameras that built buy the economy we helped build. I hate to be obvious and bring this up but it IS about Jobs.

"“reeducated” what… you can’t stand an opposing opinion?"
RE: - sounds like you.
That is a rather imature statement. I’m presenting a point of view. Re-Educating was a code-word for sending people to Siberia… Don’t you work with any Russians?

"have you actually talked to anyone that has served over there?" - jms has two sons both serving there right now.
My Point Exactly and on his blog he say’s that his sons are on active duty but he didn’t say were, he also said, and I think this is very telling, that it gives for “very interesting conversations” meaning between he and his sons. Which leaves me to believe that they don’t exactly agree on everything.

RE: “the forever war Bush set up” Again Bush is Gone! Get over it!" - It's been less than a year and Bush's ills are being swept under the rug. We are living his legacy right now.
You are 100% correct! We are living Bushes mistakes, I certainly do not agree that they are being swept under any rug. Far from that there has been and will continue to be close examination of his presidency and that is for history to deceide what to make of it. As I stated Get over it. We need to move forward and Support this President. He need’s honest feedback not retoric right now everybody is talking AT each other and it’s getting worse.
I’m very concerned about this.
A big problem I see on both sides is that whenever a single opposing view is expressed then that one point of disagreement becomes immovable regarding that persons credibility or any proceeding statements made by that party.
Since both opposing parties react in the same manner this is no “discussion” only name calling and worse.

I’m not sure if you went to college or not but one exercise I was exposed to in Philosophy was to be given a subject that I had to argue, There where 4 of us given the same subject and we were told we had to win the argument to get an “A”. When we asked which side we were supposed to take we were politly told. “You’ll fing that out in three weeks when you have to present your side of the argument.
This is something that is totally lacking in todays exchanges.
We need to really look at both sides as if that is going to be our point of view.
It rarely ever happens and it’s too bad.

I personally believe we need to Help Afghanistan by doing what is referred to as country building.
It’s expensive and will cost a lot of money and regretably more lives.
I hate war, I’ve been involved in too many of them as it is.
However,
I’d like you to picture this.
You’re out picking BlueBerries in the woods with your family. A good woodsman knows that Bears also like BlueBerries and will bring along a side arm. Do you want to shoot the bear? No Will you shoot the bear if it attacks? That’s the problem here. The Bear usually won’t attack but maybe it’s sick or rabid or you’re unlucky enough to have gotten between a mother and her cubs.
You still need to take the appropriate action.
That is:
1. You need to be able to protect yourself.
2. You can’t reason with a wild animal (Al Qaeda)

What do you do?

I’m just saying that we need to live in the real world and that we can’t try to project what we would “like” to do upon others that most certainly don’t hold our values.
We need to understand our environment and our situation and act acourdingly.

Murph

If you only knew! :)?

so you are the only one that knows? oh you and biden that's right...the 2 of you are smarter than gates, mcchrystal and clinton (all hand picked by your beloved obama by the way)

“Staying in Afghanistan I understand has only brought a threat from the Taliban to attack us in the US once they get us out of Afghanistan.”

why do you think they supported al qaeda and gave them a safe haven to plan and launch attacks against the usa????????? could it possibly be because they have the same ideology? why do you think when we asked then to give up bin laden they refused? your logic makes absolutely no sense.

“Afghanistan belongs to the Taliban”

you might want to ask the afghan people about that

“they said they would keep Al Qaeda out”

would you like to give me the link to the news story that says this?

“If the goal is to take on Islam we are headed towards success.”

i think about 99% of muslims would disagree with you that the taliban follow islam. and if they do agree with you then we should be at war with islam.

“They may be now but the Taliban was not the enemy Al Qaeda was and is they attacked us not the Taliban.”

again i will remind you that the taliban gave al queda a safe haven to plan attacks against us and the rest of the world and refused to give bin laden up. how is that not against us?

“Who the hell cares if Afghanistan is a safe haven for the Taliban it is their country.”

IT IS NOT THEIR COUNTRY

“As long as they keep out Al Qaeda leave them alone if possible and monitor them!”

and how do you suggest we do that? And if “THEY ARE NOT THE ENEMY!” why would we have to monitor them? got a little doubt there?

I detect a lot of anger here. It is possible you need to read a bit about the Taliban now and the taliban in 1996 as well. Initially the Taliban were supported and funded by the Pakistan Army to bring stability to Afghanistan and end the civil war, which, unsurprisingly given their backing, they did fairly quickly. Between 1992-94, Afghanistan was in civil war as you know, and Pakistan abandoned its support for the Mujahideen faction of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar an brought out the Taliban instead. Essentially a collection of religious and poor afghan refugees from the camps inside Pakistan. The Taliban were allowed to continue because between 1996 and 2000 they reduced Afghanistan's poppy output by 90-96%, and they did bring a measure of stability.

Now they were barbaric and insane, but they are and were also different to al qaeda. The two are different organisations and have different goals and chains of command.

The 'taliban' now are very different. Now there is a rump hardcore that remains of the original movement and the militants around the country are of different factions and groups; e.g. gulbuddin hekmatyar commands one faction. It is similar to the situation in the Mujahideen war against the Soviets, especially as far as they are concerned and they know that type of war.

In this case, now, it is hard to distinguish between Afghans and the 'Taliban'. Yes there is still a hardcore, Sharia-loving, Taliban, but they are nothing without the support of the people and the other factions. They allow people lead their lives as long as they can keep fighting.

JMS very valid point here is that more troops is not necessarily the answer. If the goal is to rebuild Afghanistan, then there are better ways to do it and a political settlement is a part of that. If the goal is to get Al Qaeda, then rebuilding afghanistan, or helping is a part of that too, to help with policing.

"again i will remind you that the taliban gave al queda a safe haven to plan attacks against us and the rest of the world and refused to give bin laden up. how is that not against us?" - Remember that the Taliban asked for evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and said they would hand him over if it was provided. The purpose of this is to show you that the Taliban are concerned with Afghanistan, not global jihad, and their survival as a group is different to the survival of Al Qaeda. Right now their aims are similar, but get between them and you can see the friction.

The point here is not to allow the Taliban to come back as they were, but to recognise what is happening and act according to that.

Great Post Changez!
Murph

“Initially the Taliban were supported and funded by the Pakistan Army to bring stability to Afghanistan and end the civil war, which, unsurprisingly given their backing, they did fairly quickly.”

oh my god you mean pakistan is responsible for the years of barbaric torture of the afghan people? tsk tsk, all this time i thought it was the usa, jews and india’s fault. and you know it is really easy to bring stability and peace with terrorism and torture

“The Taliban were allowed to continue because between 1996 and 2000 they reduced Afghanistan's poppy output by 90-96%, and they did bring a measure of stability.”

and did bring total subjugation of women and brutality to all

“Now they were barbaric and insane, but they are and were also different to al qaeda. The two are different organisations and have different goals and chains of command.”

oh well they aren’t al qaeda so it doesn’t matter how insane and barbaric they are

“but they are nothing without the support of the people and the other factions.”

so the people supported them before or did they have no other choice? and why would they have a choice now?

“Remember that the Taliban asked for evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and said they would hand him over if it was provided.”

so being the honest good choir boys they are they just needed proof and the evil usa refused to give it to them.

“The point here is not to allow the Taliban to come back as they were”

uh isn’t that the whole point of the argument going on, how to not let them come back the way they were and the best way to do that?


so it is as simple as if we quit fighting they will quit fighting? don't you think if that were true it would have been done by now? no of course you don’t think that. the taliban good the usa evil

they are just misunderstood and would bring peace and stability to the area if the evil satanic usa (and india and the jews and now russia) would just give them a chance, hey i bet that's all they want to do in pakistan too. why don't you give them the chance to bring their peace and stability there. i mean all they want is peace and stability so why don’t you want to live under their peace and stability there?

you do realize that biden wants to send more and more drones into pakistan to fight don’t you?

But how do the Afghan people feel? As WPO points out, the most recent polling in Afghanistan was conducted by ABC/BBC/ARD in January of this year. At that time a majority of 59 percent of Afghans supported the NATO forces' presence in the country.

Hi

a very well reporting! thanks for the info

Good info

The USA will not leave Afghanistan because the Taliban would ban the Afghanis from having poppy fields again. 70% of the world's heroin comes from poppy fields in Afghanistan. The American people want their drugs.

Good article JMS and I really enjoyed reading it.

Thanks changez! Been busy of late but I owe you and know it, you will see me!

did you even bother to read this part of mcChrysta's report

"The weakness of state institutions, malign actions of power-brokers, widespread corruption and abuse of power by various officials, and ISAF's own errors, have given Afghans little reason to support their government," McChrystal says.

The result has been a "crisis of confidence among Afghans," he writes. "Further, a perception that our resolve is uncertain makes Afghans reluctant to align with us against the insurgents."

McChrystal is equally critical of the command he has led since June 15. The key weakness of ISAF, he says, is that it is not aggressively defending the Afghan population. "Pre-occupied with protection of our own forces, we have operated in a manner that distances us — physically and psychologically — from the people we seek to protect. . . . The insurgents cannot defeat us militarily; but we can defeat ourselves."


sounds to me he is the only one that has the afghan population in mind

I think your mistake lies in assuming Al Qaeda is a wild animal. A lot of people extend that same analysis to the Taliban and the thing is aside from a very small hard core, the 'Taliban' as they are now are fighting for largely material and practical ends; there can be a political settlement between the factions, but it has to come from a genuine desire to rebuild Afghanistan, and for that the trust deficit between the Afghan people and NATO needs to be overcome.

changez

i don't see al qaeda and the taliban as wild animals i see them as brutal barbarians that should not be allowed to terrorize the world

the taliban will only negotiate if nato pulls all troops from the region. this shows their lack of desire for negotiations as they know this demand will never be met.

“'Taliban' as they are now are fighting for largely material and practical ends”

they are fighting for THEIR practical ends. you really think they care for the afghan people as a whole? they are fighting for power and control. a power and control that they have shown in the past they are more than willing to use to aid and abet al qaeda. everyone keeps screaming we should learn from history….shouldn’t we also learn from their history?

you say the taliban has changed with just a small hard core element left ….how do you deduce this? there are a plethora of miliant groups consentrated in the pakistan/afghanistan region…do you think this is just a bizarre coincidence?

although i do post quite frequently from angry emotion (hey i am an emotional kind of person) i seldom post from ignorance. if you think i am wrong then prove me wrong. but i don’t think i am wrong here as you do not think you are wrong. the problem is no one knows the answer….what will happen if nato pulls out….what will happen if mccrystal gets his 40,000 troops…no one knows, they can only speculate using history as a guide and as i have already stated the history of the taliban does not inspire hope or confidence

By listening to channels like Fox your understanding of the situation in Afghanistan is totally skewed. First off, the majority of the people fighting, as I have said before, are not Taliban, members of the original movement in 1996. They are farmers, normal people, militant factions and others who, for one reason or another, oppose Karzai and by extension a NATO presence in the country. For them, it is now no different to when the Soviets propped up an unpopular communist regime. I deuce this from the large number of security briefs, analyst briefss, first hand accounts and reports that I look at as a journalist living in the region and reporting and writign about the issue. I have contacts with people who do these things, from other journalists and security analysts to law enforcement officials and soldiers, and so have a fairly coherent picture. I am also not blinded by the ideology of Democracy building etc. and can see that there has to be a definite focus on building development infrastructure and civil institutions so that Afghanistan doesn't become a totally failed state. That's s why I support continued foreign troops in Afghanistan, to provide stability and security in at least the areas they can, bu preferably under a UN or other mandate, with more countries participating, so that it is acceptable to the various factions working against the Kabul regime, which represents no Afghans as the recent election scandal shows.

That way different groups can be identified and spoken too and the hardcore taliban element can be isolated and defeated. Get the picture.

i have never watched fox so you can't blame them for my "skewed" view

In that case I will just have to blame you, which is unfortunate. But honestly, read reporters and newspapers from this part of the world to get a clearer picture of the situation. If I had the time I would look at more US papers to get a better picture of the domestic situation in the US, but I don't and so often my opinions about things like health-care etc. seem foolish until I learn more. I relish the opportunity to learn more about these things from people who are there. More from a concern about how US politics affects the rest of the world than the US to be truthful. But whatever sources I have, many of them on this site, help me gain some understanding of the situation from a distance. I even watch Fox (when my cable provider supplies it) just to get a clearer picture and see what they are saying. All of this helps to have an opinion. Btw, BorderExplorer posted an excellent first hand report on the situation in Afghanistan just 3 days ago. It gave me some useful information so maybe you want to take a look at it.

changez i read dawn and the news every day and what i see from that region is extreme hatred for the usa and anything they do or say. people there would rather live in abject poverty and be blown up by the taliban then to believe anything america has to say.

yeah i read borderecplorers article and it showed how surveys are slanted to get the answers they want.

Lecia, I am glad to see you read the News and Dawn. That's pretty amazing; commentators in general over here have a pretty non-progressive outlook, and there is a certain sense of paranoia. However, there is a lot of mistrust of the US in this country and for good reason that predates 9-11 by a long way. Recent US actions have given credence to that. People still like Americans, by and large though that perception is changing, but US foreign policy is seen as essentially self serving and violent, which unfortunately it is. The US gets away with bombing Pakistani territory on a daily basis, has committed numerous human rights violations around the world without any restriction or penalty, and yet continues to say it is the good guy. That's just a formula for pissing people off really.

People here are willing to deal with poverty, are willing to fight the Taliban, are willing to do a lot of things, on their own say and their own terms, not on dictation from outside. Our own government is a sell out, and people know it, but they take US dictation and so are tolerated by the international community. There is no democracy over here, we have an oppressive state system skewed towards the wealthy and powerful. And no one trusts the US anymore; simple.

Frankly, I don't think that sentiment is confined to Pakistan, or the region, but is a pretty general sentiment around the world: USA, great country, sucks with the foreign policy and generally violent. Hence the global reaction to Obama - see. I keep trying to ell peopel that, that I or people don't 'hate you' or 'hate your way of life' or anything, but we really, really can't stand your government's unfailing war mongering, and if you say that it is not war mongering, or that the US has always worked for the right and good and not selfish ends, then that is what you need to reexamine and look at.

my “skewered” view is i want all this killing to end, in afghanistan as well as pakistan. i want obama to make up his freaking mind, either send in the troops mccrystal says are needed to protect the afghan people and secure the country so they can have some sort of normalcy and so our troops are not sitting ducks loosing their lives for nothing or GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF THERE. this half ass measure is accomplishing nothing but the loss of innocent lives (civilian and military) . you say there are “good” taliban that can be brought in to help stabilize the country..great…bring them in BUT you better be damn sure you are right because if you are wrong the killing will never end and the afghan people will once again be the victim of subjugation and brutality. i am sure you can imagine what will happen if we pull out and we are attacked again from militants inside afghanistan

i am opposed to biden who wants to use bombing and drones to target militants…you know yourself that this is NOT the way to go. i think i read in dawn that for every one militant that is killed there are ten civilians killed…is that right? i don’t know whether to believe this or not with the high anti-american sentiment there. even if it isn’t true the fact that it angers people in the region so much is a good reason to not follow this policy. and this is coming from someone who is suppose to be an expert on the region?

i also have the “skewered” view that the pak/afghan border is a haven for militants who’s ideology is to force the world to bow to their “skewered” view of islam. these people must be stopped for all our sakes

you must also be aware that if we are seen as weak or defeated that this will only strengthen the likes of al qaeda and the “bad” taliban.

americans have got to stop thinking that all muslims are terrorist and muslims have got to stop thinking that americans, jews and indians are the blame for all their problems.

“we need to strive to win the hearts and minds of muslims” is the politically correct manta these days…ok i’ll go for that BUT only if you add that “muslims need to strive to win the hearts and minds of americans” as well…this is a relationship…it takes both parties working together to achieve unity and peace

and this is the last i have to say on this issue…i may not agree with what you have to say but i will fight to the death for your right to say it….and that’s a promise…..:)

not to mention the fact that you are implying that the news there is telling the truth while the news i get here is all lies

Changez we can only hope more will look at the articles I have written aboutt Pakistan's Lasshkar and see yes there is hatred for America but it is more so directed at the Taliban and a desire to kill them.

Lecia much of the news here is managed so you only hear what they want you to hear and what they want you to think is the truth. You have to hunt for it yourself not only here but around the world!

i do read news from around the world and i chat with people from every country on this planet. and news around the world is just as biased and slanted as it is here americans do not have a patten on this. you just have to read and choose what you believe. and i choose to believe that the usa is not responsible for all the evil in the world. for example in pakistan if zardari makes a policy that is favored by the people it is stated that he made the decision against the americans wishes...if he makes a policy that is not favored by the people then it is stated that america forced him to do it. read and learn.

On McChristal, he was directly involved in the coverup of Pat Tillman's death. After that, I don't trust him.

**correction patent

I agree Tom!

Lecia it is all slanted depending on what any one side wants you to think of as the truth. That is why we have to find it ourselves. It really does stink but this is the new world!

McCrystal mind me saying is a mad idiot. 17/10/2009.

mllovric, he is an educated war College Grad mad idiot!