'You lie!' from audience a shock to America

Distressing. An apology is not enough. The representative should be censured by Congress. His constituents should be sufficiently embaarrassed by his actions to call for his removal from office. No matter who comments like this come from they are simply unacceptable. Period.

I strongly agree! How can he gain respect if he himself cannot respect others! Shame to that congressman!

oh i don't know....i think "we the people" remaining silent is what has gotten us into this mess.....more people should raise up and DEMAND accountability from these washington liars

I agree completely.

But in congress? Sorry, there is such a thing as time and place. This isn't either.

Bush was routinely booed in the same situation... even during his "State of the Union" address; it was in poor taste, but time to get over it and move on...

the time for such demands has long passed and the place is any where any time politicians open their mouths

there is a time for things like that. Not one congressman has ever done this before. It is very disrespectful of the government. Not just Obama and the Dems. Of every President and our government.

Clearly we are miles apart and will simply have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for expressing yourself.

I am glad the Congressman spoke his mind. It may not have been the appropriate place for it, but I applaud him for speaking up. This is the problem with this country. People get too mushy and feel offended when anyone dares to call out the President on a factual matter. But when the Speaker of House gets in front of the camera and calls Town Hall Protestors Angry-mobs and ignorant, its ok. Did Pelosi ever opologize by the way? Was she censured in any way? His constituents should be proud that someone in Congress is actually standing up and calling out our President. We know the mainstream media won't do it.What is embarassing is how Charlie Rangel can remain on as Chairman of the House Ways & Means Committee and not asked to step down when is breaking every tax law possible. That is embarrassing.

He spoke his mind and he was completely wrong and/or lying and/or stupid.

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

That is from the bill. It is clear. In Capital letters and in normal letters.

The bill does not pay for illegal immigrants.

So which one is it, is Wilson a liar, is he stupid or is he wrong?

Food stamps were as vague. WHY NOT close the possible loopholes?

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) in his op-ed for The Hill:

H.R. 3200 contains gaping loopholes that will allow illegal immigrants to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. And these loopholes are no accident. The legislation contains no verification mechanism to ensure that illegal immigrants do not apply for benefits. Republicans offered an amendment to close this loophole — it would have required verification using the existing methods that are already in place to verify eligibility for other federal benefits programs. But, when they were asked to put the language of the bill where their words were, in a party-line vote, House Democrats rejected the amendment to require verification and close this loophole.


Why reject it? If you're so sure it will not cover illegals - why reject any possible closure of loopholes?

You can't bring up unrelated other inappropriate occurrences in defense of the congressman. There is simply no excuse, ever - for something like this to occur in a joint session of congress. This shows lack of restraint and respect for the president and what we're supposed to stand for. Neither side should ever be applauded for conducting themselves like knuckle-draggers in a public forum. Debate, yes, of course - but that was not debate. Actions like this one bring us down to the level of spoiled children.

I respectfully disagree and would be much more respectful if Congress actually did get into it during the speech last night. The President is an employee - Congressmen are employees. I hire Congress and if someones feeding me a bunch of garbage - "you're a liar" is just fine with me.

It's not inappropriate anymore. It's out of control and we're not English whitehaired gentlemen...we are AMERICANS and that congressman was pissed because Obama was rambling again. Nothing was different and no plan was there.

So, I'd rather have seen more congress representatives given him the WHATFOR than have jumped up like a jack in the box behind him (Pelosi)

I want answers...and I want Congress to get them.

I respectfully disagree with you sir.

Democrats have engaged in this behavior many times during President George Bushs Joint Sessions speeches.

Here is how CNN Host Joe Watkins described it..

JOE WATKINS (radio host and CNN substitute host): Did you hear it? Certainly not the polite protocol usually practiced when a president speaks to Congress. If a Democrat one day delivers a State of the Union address, I hope the Republicans won't lower themselves to such a disrespectful level. I hope last night's behavior by a few lawmakers doesn't set a new precedent, that both parties can agree to remain civil, even when voicing disagreements.

I think it's fair to call this a "related occurrence".

Thanks Red,
I'm tired of the left's seeming amnesia of their own transgressions... talk about the pot calling the kettle black... *sigh*

amalgam80,

I have said that maybe the timing and occassion was not appropriate, but it was a spontaneous remark and I applaud him for speaking his mind which is probably something a lot of people would have said themselves. People are acting a little too sensitive here and railing about this is disrespecting the Presidency and it is embarrassing..What about all the times that The left in particular mocked and even wished President Bush was killed? What about the movie that was made about his assassination while he was still in office? I didn't hear too many cries of 'This is disrespectful of the Presidency then...This is so predictable from the State Run Media. This is just a nother ploy to try and distract Americans from the real issue at hand, Healthcare Reform.

RED: You are correct that disagreement in Congress has happened before, where people have hissed and booed. The Dems did it during one of W's state of the unions when he said that social security the would go bankrupt by 2046 I believe.
That's the example you gave.

Before that the republicans did it for CLinton. Some even walked out, will a few yell no and boos.

Not one person has ever stood up and yelled, "You Lie,"

Never has AMerica been disrespected like that. This isn't England, there are ways of disagreeing with the president during such important speeched. "You Lie" is not the way, like stated above there are time and places for that.

"You Lie" is disrespectful of the Presidency, not the President. And he wasn't lieing was he. He was talking about how illegals are not going to be covered. He was talking about 30 million Americans, not the 47 million Americans.

He is telling the AMerican people that his plan will not cover the "Illegals" and the Republican congressman you are defending jumped up and called the President a liar in a speech that will be talked about all over the world.

I want an apology. And you should to. Or be ready for the next Republican President to go through even worse outbursts. And other Presidents that will be interupted in the future.

The Liar here was the man yelling "You Lie".

This is exactly what the mainstream media wants everyone to focus on instead of the real issue at hand. Which is that once again the voices of the American people are being dismissed by this administration on the issue of Healthcare.

Ugg. The mainstream media is only a problem when they don't criticize the president you chose not to vote for. I didn't hear Redhanded,

Repubs complaining about the mainstream media when they failed to put Bush under a hot seat. Who is it that's always talking about the mainstream media? Rush Limbaugh? Perhaps you should stop listening to him and focus on the issues. Whatever, big deal, the guy called Obama a liar. I don't really care. It wasn't appropriate for the setting. Acknowledging that doesn't really deflect attention away from the bigger picture. To me it was just a blip in a very interesting and informative speech. I don't loose sleep over it or agonize over what will be done next.

Once again, we disagree on this issue. That's fine, because this is the place for debate and free commentary. Thanks for your thoughts.

i got the video posted for this event on my profile if you want to refresh your memory on the incident please visit this link(http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4114093-you-lie-yells-rep-wilson-to-obama-during-live-telecast-video)

It was disrespectful. I don't recall any democrats jumping up and doing that during a Bush speech. You would think the republicans could show the same respect, but apparently not.

Democrats have engaged in this behavior many times during President George Bushs Joint Sessions speeches.

Here is how CNN Host Joe Watkins described one of those instances.

JOE WATKINS (radio host and CNN substitute host): Did you hear it? Certainly not the polite protocol usually practiced when a president speaks to Congress. If a Democrat one day delivers a State of the Union address, I hope the Republicans won't lower themselves to such a disrespectful level. I hope last night's behavior by a few lawmakers doesn't set a new precedent, that both parties can agree to remain civil, even when voicing disagreements

sounds like you are doing a little typical "conservative" mis-quoting to me. How about you add a link to your response where that's documented fact, and then I will actually attempt take anything you say seriously.

Undocumented people cannot be insured. I did not know that South Carolina was so far behind the curve. First, Gov. Sanford, now Rep. Wilson. S. Carolina is the only state that still hangs the Confederate flag at its state capitol. The Confederates lost in 1865. S. Carolina is 144 years behind the rest of the country, and the way that they vote for people to place in offices proves that they are the Troglodytes of the USA.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of a state's sovereign rights and a reminder of what can happen when those rights are trampled on by the government; it's also a large part of the history of the state. It has a good reason to be there.

The Confederate flag has no right to be flown. They lost the war. Unless South Carolina wants to identify themselves as being a bunch of losers, since they have this loser in the House of Reps. The Confederates lost! Get over it. It happened 144 years ago. Move on.

The state has the right to do what it wishes, according to the Constitution. You may seem them as "losers" but many others don't, and we also have that right guaranteed. Get over it. Move on.

Not with taxpayer dollars.If you are here illegally, our tax dollars should not be directed towards covering anyone that is here illegally. Maybe we can take away some of the Billions in Aid we send to Mexico and buy insurance policies for all illegal immigrants instead of having the poor and needy in Mexico use it to buy food and clothe their children.

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

The bill the right is dubbing Obamacare says that which is above. I think the term undocumented aliens and "individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States" are illegal immigrants. If so, then the bill clearly says that it will not pay for them.

Food stamps were as vague. WHY NOT close the possible loopholes?

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) in his op-ed for The Hill:

H.R. 3200 contains gaping loopholes that will allow illegal immigrants to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. And these loopholes are no accident. The legislation contains no verification mechanism to ensure that illegal immigrants do not apply for benefits. Republicans offered an amendment to close this loophole — it would have required verification using the existing methods that are already in place to verify eligibility for other federal benefits programs. But, when they were asked to put the language of the bill where their words were, in a party-line vote, House Democrats rejected the amendment to require verification and close this loophole.


Why reject it? If you're so sure it will not cover illegals - why reject any possible closure of loopholes?

Yeah that would make sense if Mexicans were the only illegals here in this country.

If Wilson feels the President is lying, please have him show where in the health care bill does it say that illegals will be covered.

It was disrespectful. Mr. Wilson will pay the price for his outburst.

Deke - Laws of insurance - if it does not say it is NOT covered it IS covered. Wilson is right.

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.


There it says that it will not cover it. WILSON IS WRONG AND A LIAR.

Food stamps were as vague. WHY NOT close the possible loopholes?

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) in his op-ed for The Hill:

H.R. 3200 contains gaping loopholes that will allow illegal immigrants to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. And these loopholes are no accident. The legislation contains no verification mechanism to ensure that illegal immigrants do not apply for benefits. Republicans offered an amendment to close this loophole — it would have required verification using the existing methods that are already in place to verify eligibility for other federal benefits programs. But, when they were asked to put the language of the bill where their words were, in a party-line vote, House Democrats rejected the amendment to require verification and close this loophole.


Why reject it? If you're so sure it will not cover illegals - why reject any possible closure of loopholes?

write4Life,

"Deke - Laws of insurance - if it does not say it is NOT covered it IS covered. Wilson is right."

That's got to be the dumbest shit I've ever heard. My bullshit meter tells me that you are full of shit. Hold on...yeah it's working properly.

To your other comment, perhaps you have no idea how to detect bullshit cause you reek of it. Undocumented immigrants getting healthcare coverage for free? That's the status quo. Write me when you have something intelligent to say write4Life. It was time for Obama to come out and dispell a lot of myths about his health care reform because some people believe everything they hear from Obama haters like you. write4Life, you need to read4life like your life depended on it and inform yourself.

If Obama is lying, time will tell and we can play back his words and bust him out. I just simply don't care if Undocumented immigrants get healthcare for free. Everyone in this country has a right to be healthy. Say an undocumented immigrant has swine flu. Shouldn't we treat them, so you don't contract it from them. Nevermind, I assumed you were reasonable for a minute there. "Illegals should all die and get the hell out of our country. We don't like their kind! That's the American way!"

"That's got to be the dumbest shit I've ever heard."

Really? ...don't you proofread your own posts...?

"if he is lying - time will tell" is only good for people as ignorant AS you. You can't push a massive overhaul out and retract it ...

And come back to ME when you actually read something yourself instead of blasting informative people who disagree with you. You're a mean person. You're a typical progressive - call names if someone disagrees with your view.

And - "dumbest shit you've ever heard"...are you three??? That's how insurance works ...It's called covered, excluded = product. Insurance policies have evolved over time by generally covering events that are not specifically excluded. As unanticipated losses grow, and because they are not generally excluded - they are covered. Eventually, revisions add the exclusion - to cover unanticipated payments - but still pays for those that are incurred prior to the exclusion.

Under the Democrat Reform Bill, Illegal immigrants would receive healthcare benefits. Under a plan that passed the House Energy and Commerce Committee back in July, it states as such:
The report concedes that some undocumented immigrants "would be eligible for emergency Medicaid" and that some families of illegal immigrants would qualify for subsidies if other members of the household are eligible for those benefits.
This is clearly outlined in Congressional Services Report put out by Democrats.

You may want to research on your time.

That is already a law Red. It is already in existance. What Obama is talking about is the plan(s) that is up for discussion at the moment, not bills that are hafve already become law.

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

That is from the bill that is in the house right now. It says in the capital letters that it will not cover illegal aliens. Or rather undocumented aliens.

Food stamps were as vague. WHY NOT close the possible loopholes?

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) in his op-ed for The Hill:

H.R. 3200 contains gaping loopholes that will allow illegal immigrants to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. And these loopholes are no accident. The legislation contains no verification mechanism to ensure that illegal immigrants do not apply for benefits. Republicans offered an amendment to close this loophole — it would have required verification using the existing methods that are already in place to verify eligibility for other federal benefits programs. But, when they were asked to put the language of the bill where their words were, in a party-line vote, House Democrats rejected the amendment to require verification and close this loophole.


Why reject it? If you're so sure it will not cover illegals - why reject any possible closure of loopholes?

illegal immigrants are currently eligible for emergency medical care. anytime they walk into an emergency room. The health bill, won't be covering them any differently.

I would like to take one small moment since I have to do the worlds worst chore - cook - BUT - American did not win the Revolutionary war by fighting King George one line at a time. We fought the war without dignity and harshly. We did not want to be enslaved to another nation of a King and Britain LOST because we did not subject ourselves to the PROPER way of fighting.

There is NO proper. Obama is lying and I too have had it up to my eyeballs with his dance around the truth.

Another sad testimony to how the quality and character of those in Congress has deteriorated.

To Redhanded,Urrrr!!!!! The mainstream media is only a problem when they don't criticize the president you chose not to vote for. I didn't hear Repubs complaining about the mainstream media when they failed to put Bush under a hot seat. Who is it that's always talking about the mainstream media? Rush Limbaugh? Perhaps you should stop listening to him and focus on the issues. Whatever, big deal, the guy called Obama a liar. I don't really care. It wasn't appropriate for the setting. Acknowledging that doesn't really deflect attention away from the bigger picture. To me it was just a blip in a very interesting and informative speech. I don't loose sleep over it or agonize over what will be done next.

To your other comment. I'm not sure if I believe it was totally spontaneous. He was taking his notes right from the townhall playbook. "The goal is to rattle him. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right down...Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the reps statments early...The purpose is to make him uneasy earl on and set the tone for the hall as clearly informal and free wheeling." I know bullshit when I see it.

apparantly you don't have any IDEA what bullshit is when you see it. Tell me exactly what NEW information you learned last night?

Personally, I learned that Nancy Pelosi can really JUMP!

Firesisle,

"The Confederate flag is a symbol of state's soverieign rights and a reminder of what can happen when those rights are trampled on by the government?"

What do you mean? Like you might lose your slaves when the government makes you? The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism and the history of racism in the states. Your support of it is just a sign of your white privledge. No wonder you dislike Obama. Just another negro huh? "They should all still be in slavery anyway! God forbid we have one as president, the negra's, I mean."

Actually the confederate flag has BECOME a symbol of racism and I would never advocate for its flying because of this but once again - YOUR FACTS are wrong.

Try reading something instead of shouting out WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST!!

Here - let me help you find some reading material...

http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2007/05/01/the-true-meaning-of-the-confederate-flag/

I think Obama did an amazing job last night detailing each element of reform not just being about the public option, not just tort reform (the only thing Rep. seem to want), making it illegal for insurance companies to deny coverage for preexisting conditions, and not lowering coverage when someone does become sick and hospitalized.

I agree that there need to be more detail about what exactly is the wasteful spending. I think he did an amazing job talking down critics and misinformation that has happened over the last few months. He did his job and I think he made it clear that each piece of the puzzle will bring healthcare reform which majority of Americans want right now.

If people still thinks he is still lying about trying to take over healthcare, death panels, federal dollars for abortions, adding to the deficit, or taking away funding in medicare then these people will always be skeptical and they have that right to believe whatever they want. Now, I just hope Congress does their job they were elected to do and write a heathcare reform bill with each element the President talked about last night.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10467

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/09/10/the-dncs-pure-uninformed-demagoguery/

Just two articles from Cato worth the read...

Oh please I do not believe a word that Sarah Palin says and neither should you! If you didn't listen clearly to the speech last night President Obama promoted Medicare for senior citizens and the only party that want to illiminate Medicare is the Republican party...We all know they didn't vote for it in the beginning. Obama understands that Medicare is a Secret trust that if you work hard your whole life the government will provide for you towards the end of life when you need it the most.

You can post all the right wing conservative blogs you want write4life. I am not going to believe word that crazy Alaskan says. Sen. John McCaine doesn't believe the lies of the supposed "death panels". All it stated is that the plan would pay for your counseling at the end of life if you wanted it! It wasn't forcing grandma to pull the plug. You just want to believe what you want and stay and fear and I will continue to believe in the kind of healthcare reform the President is supporting.

Cato is not a conservative blog so keep that mind closed Melissa...it does our country a lot of good!

"What do you mean? Like you might lose your slaves when the government makes you? The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism and the history of racism in the states. Your support of it is just a sign of your white privledge."

Nope; wrong; guess again...

"No wonder you dislike Obama. Just another negro huh? "They should all still be in slavery anyway! God forbid we have one as president, the negra's, I mean."

Again, clueless... how unfortunate for you.

It's sad you feel that way; it's truly a shame you can't see beyond your own prejudices. I've provided a number of reasons why I don't care for our current president; none of them concern his race. Any man can have fatal character flaws, and that man has many. Pointing them out isn't racism, it's critical commentary, pragmatism, and common sense.

I was proud that my country elected a black man; I'm merely ashamed to be represented by the man that was elected. Color means nothing to me. My church is over half black, and when I was a teacher, most of my students, about 90%, were minorities, primarily black.

My central message to them was to never give in to feeling sorry for themselves, to never let anything hold them back and never accept "no" for an answer; that they could succeed or fail on their own merits, and to never use their race for an excuse for failure. I'd like to think I made a difference in their lives; I know for sure they made a big difference in mine.

fireisle,

"It's sad you feel that way; it's truly a shame you can't see beyond your own prejudices."

Ha! That's projection if I've ever seen it. Some of my best friends are white buddy, so obviously that qualifies me as being open minded at not prejudice. You don't need to explain to me. That extra tidbit at the end about slavery was just for fun, but I'm hardly prejudiced. I'm not the one who defends what many people, not just African American's by the way, consider a symbol of racism in this country. So spare me your whole life story. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I don't know you well enough to know if you're a racist, but your statements about the confederate flag proves you just don't relate to how us African Americans feel about that confederate flag my friend. Which is why I specifically said, "White privilege", not racist.

I'm sure you've just practiced that little speech over and over and have been itching for the right time to pull it out of your arsenal but I haven't heard you say anything about Obama rather than disagreeing with his plan which has more to do with what I suspect to be your Republicanism than racism. I'm more concerned by this Con-slavery flag.

"My central message to them was to never give in to feeling sorry for themselves, to never let anything hold them back and never accept "no" for an answer; that they could succeed or fail on their own merits, and to never use their race for an excuse for failure."

Oh boy. Why is this your central message to the black kids? The truth is many will be held back because of who they are, and they will have to work harder and shine brighter to succeed on their own merits. I just hate this undertone, specifically when you say, "use their race as an excuse" of assumption that the playing field is equal and institutionalized racism doesn't touch our educational, employment and political systems in America. No one's making excuses, just acknowledging the truth. I agree that we shouldn't feel hopeless, but should take this as a reason we must work harder to achieve our dreams and gain access to the social systems in America so we can work on fixing our problems from within the system. So when you say things like that, it demonstrates what I believe to be your complete cluelessness of what it's like to be black in this country..Hence forth white privilege. (I've got some stories, but not enough space to give you the rundown.) As a matter of fact that statement pisses me off a bit. Who says anyone's making an excuse? Tell them the truth. Their going to have to work twice as hard. We've made progress, but racism is still alive and well in this country. That's what I told my kids when I worked down in South Central LA. But this blog ain't about all that. firesisle, we should start a blog about race! Perhaps I will tonight if I feel like it. I invite you to engage me more there.

"Oh boy. Why is this your central message to the black kids? The truth is many will be held back because of who they are, and they will have to work harder and shine brighter to succeed on their own merits."

That was exactly my point. Anyone who is willing to accept less will get less.

"I just hate this undertone, specifically when you say, "use their race as an excuse" of assumption that the playing field is equal and institutionalized racism doesn't touch our educational, employment and political systems in America."

Again, exactly my point; the playing field isn't level for a lot of people. In that particular instance I was talking to a kid had stated, "I don't know what I'm doing this for... nobody's gonna hire a black man to be an electrician!". I told him that as long as he was going to put those kinds of limits on himself, he was probably right; I then told him that he could do anything he was willing to fight for, and if he didn't back down, he'd get where he wanted to go.

"No one's making excuses, just acknowledging the truth. I agree that we shouldn't feel hopeless, but should take this as a reason we must work harder to achieve our dreams and gain access to the social systems in America so we can work on fixing our problems from within the system."

Absolutely spot dead on. I couldn't agree more.

"So when you say things like that, it demonstrates what I believe to be your complete cluelessness of what it's like to be black in this country..Hence forth white privilege. (I've got some stories, but not enough space to give you the rundown.) As a matter of fact that statement pisses me off a bit. Who says anyone's making an excuse? Tell them the truth. Their going to have to work twice as hard. We've made progress, but racism is still alive and well in this country. That's what I told my kids when I worked down in South Central LA. But this blog ain't about all that. firesisle, we should start a blog about race! Perhaps I will tonight if I feel like it. I invite you to engage me more there."

Man, that's exactly what I told them. I agree with that 1000%! Racism and discrimination will always be alive in this country because there will always be ignorant people who feel it is somehow empowering to look down on others. Because of that, people who are different, be thy minorities,women, disabled people, whatever, must be ready to work harder and be more persistent if they want to get ahead;

I'm 40% disabled, and have been for a long time; when I worked as an electrician, I had to work harder, and be better, just to be accepted as equal. If I worked with another person, my bosses many times gave that other person all the credit for what we accomplished, because I was obviously not able to perform at that level.

You're right; I don't understand what it's like to be black, because I'm not black; I do, however, understand what it is to have all of your worth dismissed out of hand because of your appearance. It's dehumanizing and insulting, and in my case, it always drove me to be the best man on any crew I worked on.

Well fireisle we finally agree on something. Thanks for the story.

How can you not look at the confederate flag and not be disgusted that is still is raised in South Carolina? In the time it was raise throughout the south African Americans were beaten, deprived of freedom, and forced into a life, and here you two are defending it! The very least you could say is that it should come down because of the hate it does represent to so many Americans across this country! They question is raised in my opinion...Why is the flag still up if we all know and remember a time when it represented a part of the country were American lives with enslaved? It is obvious the congressmen and women in South Carolina don't care about the hurt it still causes today. People forget the civil rights movement wasn't too long ago and racism is still an issue in American today. That is a fact!. Sorry you don't see it in your ivory tower! I have no tolerance for ignorance and not walking in another persons' shoes.

The same way I can look at the "Union Jack" that flew over my ancestral home and at the time symbolized the total submission of the Irish people, denying them their flag, their national color and their language, and still realize that it represents a great deal of pride to those whose ancestry is different than my own.

The way I can see a college who's team is called the "Orangemen", who in reality were noting but Protestant thugs in Northern Ireland who celebrated the victory of William of Orange ever year, by walking the streets in gangs, banging on drums, and beating the living Hell out of every poor Irish Catholic they encountered, some literally to death, and also understand that there are alumni who are rightfully proud of what they accomplished there and that the term means something different to them.

I don't condone slavery; I don't condone everything the Confederacy stood for; I absolutely support what the Constitution stands for, however, so I will also support any state to fly any flag it wishes, for as long as it wishes to do so.

"People forget the civil rights movement wasn't too long ago and racism is still an issue in American today."

I'm not likely to forget; I was in Montgomery, AL, in 1958 and 1959, and in Washington DC in 1968 during Resurrection City. Martin Luther King was one of my greatest heroes and a visionary who surpassed all of his peers;

The problem is that racism will always be with us because people have the right to express their beliefs, regardless of how abhorrent they may be to others. It's what the Constitution was founded on. There are legal limits on how it's applied, but minds can't be legislated; would be it was that easy...

As a non-Republican or Democrat, it would appear this entire incident again is being used for political reasons and not seen for the truth in what Mr. Wilson actually stated. Which was, after all, the truth. And he didn't state it by half actually, as a former 45 year border resident can attest.

Illegal immigrants already get free taxpayer paid health care, with or without this health care reform, they get it anyway. In fact, the Arizona residents voted to deny them such benefits because it had resulted in detrimental treatment and care to many lawful Arizona residents, who were paying megabucks for their own insurance coverage, while watching illegals get treatment for free at some of Arizona's foremost hospitals. Most merely for cases of the flu. And I mean the regular flu and not the trumped up "swine flu" that the WHO is using to promote and increase the pharmaceutical industries profits, just as was done in the 70's during that recession. They are, after all, getting quite predictable in their manipulations of the citizens for Wall Street profits and their own welfare.

Mr. Wilson should have stated the obvious. And when a public official of Mr. Obama's stature is misrepresenting facts to the public in a nationally held press conference called merely to gain sympathy and support for his unconstitutional program (which it also is, fundamentall), don't think Mr. Wilson's claimed "outburst" addressed the violative nature of this legislation on the rights of the people by half.

And political correctness actually has contributed to where we are today. And not calling a spade a space. Or treason for the treason it actually is.

VERY WELL PUT!

write4Life,

It is just like a Republican calling for exclusions in a bill that is intended to give care to people who need it. I understand how insurance works. I just don't think the same rule that applies to my Montero Sport should apply to my health. Call me crazy. The problem in the first place is how insurance works. We need serious insurance reform in this country. I think its dumb because it's counterintuitive.

Now, now, don't work yourself into a tissy. I never called you any names. I told you, you are full of shit. You are the one who called me ignorant. Obviously, you don't know shit about me. I am not a typical progressive, you sterotyper. You say I call names of someone who disagrees with me, but you were the first to do that and you were the first to lump all progressives into one great homogonous ball. Don't act like I attacked you out of no where. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. Don't get me started. You think you're informative, but you haven't informed me of anything but your own bias. Get a life lady.

Chexmex - you always attack first - you said my comment was the dumbest shit you'd ever heard. Stop the back peddling. I never said I wasn't for insurance reform - I just stated a fact and you attacked.

Read the debate - you're ALWAYS attacking any view that varies from yours with vulgarity.

you don't put me in a tizzy at all - and I didn't sterotype you - you did it allllll by yourself.

write4Life,

Listen woman. I don't need to back peddal so stop trying to make it personal. Now whose being a child? I believe the converstation is about health care reform, not your twisted up feelings inside. Stop diverting the debate. If you have a problem with me, send me a private email and I can cuss you out there. I always attack first? You don't even know me. I don't have patience for you. I actually read the debate and you're attacking me all over the page. But I don't act like a baby about it. Don't get upset because I gave you a taste of what you gave me first.

I didn't mean your comment was the dumbest shit I've ever heard. The mere idea that the plan is being attacked because it's not riddled with exclusions is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Again, you taking stuff way too personally. Why are you so self centered? It's not all about you, drama queen.

It's not personal - and thanks for clarifying your dumbest shit you've ever heard - comment - because it WAS misunderstood by me with the way you phrased it.

I probably am a BIT of a drama queen - I'm quite passionate about many things and one of them is equal rights for women....So, since you are one that is for equal rights - next time it might be nice to skip the "Listen woman" comment because believe me or not - us ladies DO find that offensive.

Ta TA - tiara

Some of you seem to be missing the point. The reason we didn't jump up and scream "You lie!" in the past was that the two sides respected each other.

Quite frankly, I'm a little leery of the accusations that Democrats booed Bush during his speeches to Congress. The usual -- and what I remember -- is that disapproval is registered by sitting quietly while the fans cheer.

I have a friend who worked at United Airlines in the early '70s. He was seating people for a flight when he saw that there were three U.S. Senators in first class. He sat them together because he thought Hubert Humphrey (liberal Democrat), Charles Percy (moderate Republican) and Barry Goldwater (conservative Republican) would argue and fight.

A flight attendant came to him after the flight and told him never to do that again. She told him the three men had a wonderful time drinking, laughing and pinching stewardesses. They were all good friends as fellow senators.

Wouldn't happen today.

I'd have to respectfully disagree... they're still like a bunch of lawyers, who go for each other's throats when they're working but drink and laugh together at the club when the days's done...

Write4Life, I guess I'll change my theory to ANYONE who sides with Sarah Palin not only Conservatives. I've never heard of Cato before but I don't think I can really take a blogger seriously since we are all biased in our own views.

[Comment deleted by user]

Hi Melissa -

I am not plugging CATO - but it is not a blog - it's a non-profit organization and it is JUST as against Sarah Palin and it is for. It is non-partisan and there are times when I cringed, but I still consider it far better than the WSJ or NYT because it doesn't write from a particular side. It is a group of scholars mainly and the article on Palin in reference was not about them approving of her - it was about a Sunday news program citing her as citing one of their scholars. The scholar said - he never spoke with her and then goes on to say - she was however, right on one thing...

All I am trying to say is that - while you shut out sites- you also shut out thoughts from other views. I don't do that - and I din't think anyone should - especially now.

From "About Cato" - and it's only a SMALL part..

Market liberals have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We reject the bashing of gays, China, rich people, and immigrants that contemporary liberals and conservatives seem to think addresses society's problems. We applaud the liberation of blacks and women from the statist restrictions that for so long kept them out of the economic mainstream. Our greatest challenge today is to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world. "

and from Wik -

"The Cato Institute is non-partisan, and its scholars' views are not consistently aligned with either major political party. For example, Cato scholars were sharply critical of the second Bush administration (2001 - 2009) on a wide variety of issues, including the Iraq war, civil liberties, education, health care, agriculture, energy policy, and excessive government spending. However, on other issues, most notably Social Security,[1][2] global warming,[3][4] tax policy,[5] and immigration,[6][7][8][9][10] Cato scholars had praised Bush administration initiatives. During the 2008 U.S. presidential election, Cato scholars criticized both major-party candidates, John McCain[11][12] and Barack Obama.[13][14]"

There was a time when no one would ever dare do such a thing. I thought the speech was pretty good, but he was pretty vague, and didn't really explain the public option in its entirety, most people will not really understand what that really means from his speech.

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.



So if a bill says that it will not pay for anything it is proposing for illegal aliens. The new subsidies that it is proposing. And the Dems have stopped a provision that will ask people to show verification of citizenship prior to an emergency visit. Because if you are talking about MEdicaid, all it covers is emergency visits, exactly for the reason that no one trying to get emergency treatment for anything should have their treatment slowed down for any reason.

So Medicaid will be expanded! To cover the poor! Not to cover illegal immigrants! Because anything new being done to the healthcare, the new programs will not cover any undocumented immigrants.

So when an illegal immigrant applies for the public option, they will be denied. because HR 3200 does not pay for illegal immigrants. SO why do we need to make a 1100 page bill even thicker by adding a provision that would be redundant? And a immigration check that is redundant? It has said that it willnot cover them. In clear English.

No one on the public option is going to be an illegal immigrant, so why does treatment need to be slowed down for anyone coming in to be checked out under teh public option? Why if they have already been check when they applied for the public option, do they need to be checked again at treatment? Would that not be a waste of time and money?

[Comment deleted by user]

write4Life,

"Actually the confederate flag has BECOME a symbol of racism and I would never advocate for its flying because of this but once again - YOUR FACTS are wrong."

I'm not trying to pick a fight I promise! I just had to comment on this. I read that article you linked. But my feeling as an African American about how the Confederate Flag makes me feel can't be reduced to fact or not. That's how a lot of African Americans feel about that flag in this country. I know the politics of the Civil War. Lincoln didn't care whether or not the slaves were freed. He wanted to keep the union intact. I've heard these arguments of states rights and southern pride before. I just think that part of the states supposed rights at the time were to keep human beings as slaves. It wasn't right. The war was about the union, but I don't doubt for one minute that the south was fighting to succeed from the union, to keep their slaves, keep counting those slaves as 3/5ths of a man for greater representation, and their entire way of life. And for that reason, I think the KKK and white supremacists have adopted it as a symbol of hate, or rather a symbol of what they'd prefer America to return to.

I took a Communication Criticism class when I was in college and my professor put up a picture of the Confederate Flag and asked the 300 plus students in the seminar to say what it means to them. I went to a school with a predomintately white student population. We heard southern pride, states rights, etc. Believe it or not, I had never heard that before, because I grew up in California and in a predominately African American and Latino community. As one of three black people in the room, I shouted out racism and people were shocked. Do I not have a different perspective because of who I am and what I have experieenced as a black woman in America? Symbols mean different things to different people and that was my professor's point. I agree with Obama, the flag belongs in a museum. No one's calling white people racists, so there's no need for you to feel guilty or to put down a unique perspective because you don't understand it.

You make some very good points here; I understand completely where you're coming from, and I'm sure that in your situation, I would feel exactly the same way.

The issue with the Confederate flag in our own time, however, especially over where it should or shouldn't be flown, again boils down to states rights, and individual rights, both cornerstones of the Constitution.

If a state wants to fly it, for what ever reason, they have the right, just as the American Nazi Party has the right to hold public rallies. I'd never agree with their politics or policies, but would always defend their right to present them, if they so choose. It's not that I'm not offended; I am. I just think that the whole issue of Constitutional rights trumps my own personal sense of outrage.

I agree - I had a professor in college who when doing research for his PhD went "underground" into Alabama and the true KKK. This was in the 80's that I was in college so he most likely did this at a very tense time - late 60's early 70's. He said it was the most hate filled and horrible experience of his life and left him feeling he had no "soul." He said it was also the most terrifying time of his life because had these people understood his thesis was on racism and he was actually documenting the KKK - he would have surely been killed.

His stories were horrible and I lived in SC for 1 year of my life as well. This was in the 90's. My husband and I hated it. We were not in the coastal area where it is all tourists - we were in an area recently noted for a serial killing spree and we lasted ONE year. The attitude of the area was absolutely racist. There is still a strong anti-black hatred in certain areas of the United States and in those homes - you often see one thing - the confederate flag. In Boston - I don't see the hatred and although as a white woman I can only speak about the fight for womens rights, I would never - ever - state that I am even one inch above that of a black man OR woman. It's not as common - but I don't for one minute think it doesn't still exist...just like for one moment I don't think that a qualified man would be chosen for a job over a qualified woman any day- and that includes the Presidency - too.

When Columbia had the huge debate over the flying of the flag, I did not speak for it - I spoke against it....I too think it is a sign of hatred.

It start that way - but many things roll differently once they are seen as a symbol of anything...to which was my only point. It may have started out as something much different than it became...

Now the same goes for common politics. The danger is not in the symbol - it is what the symbol becomes and we are not a country without failures, without an ability to fall - we are just as able to loose our freedoms as any other country. We think we are omnipotent - but we are anything but.

History tells only one true tale - all empires have fallen eventually and that symbols may come out with one tale and one meaning and turn another way the minute a mass associates itself to the symbol.

AND YOU'RE A WOMAN!!!??? Who knew!?? :)

This whole debate is ridiculous. Every single person in the universe should be entitled to health care no matter what. How can we let things like money and legal status determine whether or not we will treat somebody who is in need of help, somebody whose life could be at risk? When it comes down to it, none of that stuff matters. Health goes beyond everything. At the end of the day, we're all human.

Inspector,

I totally agree with you. We're all a part of the human race. No one should place a value judegement on who lives and dies because of immigration status, and certainly not because they think it's too costly. After all, Obama said the health care plan will cost less than the Iraq and Afganistan wars. I guess folks are more comfortable with spending a million dollars to build and explode a bomb, rather that doing something useful in society like feeding the hungry or god forbid, providing health care for all.

Unfortunately, what Obama says, and what the Congressional Budget Office says are miles apart. When you don't have money, it doesn't matter what you spent your money on yesterday; the bailout cost more than the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe Obama should have bailed out the American people before offering corporate welfare that broke the bank.

I agree that all people should have health care; I will never accept that it must come on the backs of those who are currently satisfied with what they have nor do I believe it's necessary.

firesisle,

I saw Americans protest the wars. But never have I seen such an uprising in the American People as I have since the start of these townhalls concerning Health Care Reform. We didn't have the money for the war either, but we spent it anyway. That's why it's called a deficit. So I suppose American's don't have their priorities straight. We are so reactionary. "Oh, no Bush ruined the economy, let's not spend anything else and lets not question the spending practices that got us in this mess in the first place! Look to the future." Had we been asking questions earlier on we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Money is not a reason to deny legislation that has the intentions of helping many Americans. As a matter of fact, I say now is the perfect time. American's pocket books are hurting more than it has in a long time, so maybe they need a little help. Just a thought.

The bailout was a bunch of bull. I agree. Obama voted for it to save Capitalism because the foundation of our Economy is the banks and if they fail, Capitalism fails. I guess he could be the Marxist many believe he is and allow Capitalism to fail so he can usher in the Socialist revolution. The bail out was a necessary evil. But why are people saying Obama bail out? First of all the bailout was voted for by Congress and passed in Sept or Oct of 08, before Obama was even elected.

"I agree that all people should have health care; I will never accept that it must come on the backs of those who are currently satisfied with what they have nor do I believe it's necessary."

Well, I think all people should have healthcare. This is America, not some third world country. People shouldn't be dieing of preventable diseases. I take stake in human life and that takes precedence over cost or whether or not you feel you are somehow more deserving. Everyone deserves to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country. The poor and working class are no less deserving. The working poor are some of the hardest working people I know. My mother was a single mom who worked two to three jobs most of her adult life to provide for my sister and I. When she got foodstamps, I didn't look at it as being on the backs of others. I thought of it as a civilized society taking care of it's citizens for the greater good. Since my mother is one of the hardest working people I know, I don't see her plight then or now as freeloading. But I'm glad to hear you are satisfied with your coverage. As a freelancer who has to provide her own insurance coverage, I think it's way too expensive and I am too disatisfied with what options are available. You have to pay a monthly fee, coinsurance, deductible, office visit. I can't stand paying so much for something I don't want and being rushed in and out the office so the doctor can see more patients and the hospital can make more money. Perhaps a competitive option will make our current providers offer us better, more affordable options. Such is the way of competition in Capitalism, if you believe in the theory. I don't see how having a public option will burden anyone else. After all you can keep your current provider if you want. Anything else is just SPECULATION. Why do you fight against me wanting an alternative option? If the deficit is such an issue, perhaps we should freeze spending across the board? Stop sending money to Iraq and Afganistan. Perhaps our military are bullet proof and they can manage without furthering the deficit. But that would be rediculous right? We can't just stop running as a country. We are going to continue to spend money so to me that logic of it costing money is just faulty.

And health care for all is necessary. My mother can't afford her diabetes medication and skips doses to ration out her pills. Healthcare for all is not necessary? Are you kidding? Just because it doesn't affect you, is no reason to be so selfish and heartless.

P.S. Sorry for the novel :)

Novels are always acceptable...*lol*

I'm neither selfish nor heartless; I think you misunderstood my point.
I think an alternative option is necessary. I think you and I agree completely about what Americans need, but disagree on how it should be implemented. You Mom needs to be take care of. Anybody with a debilitating disease should have an alternative. Under what's being proposed so far, it will affect people like me, and my own family.

Even with excellent health care, and a good salary which I currently have, it's still very hard for us to make ends meet because of the extreme health conditions of my family; my daughter has lupus, fibromyalgia, migraine headaches, chronic fatigue syndrome and degenerative back disease; my wife has fibromyalgia, chronic faigue syndrome, severe oteoporosis, and rheumatoid arthritis; I'm ADHD, chronically depressed and suffer from ankelosing spondylitis. Copays on medications routinely run about $700 every three months, sometimes more. That's not even considering the costs of doctors, specialists, therapy etc. Because of my current salary, under the proposed plan, not only would our coverage go down, but our premiums would be prohibitive, to the point we would lose our home. It's not about being selfish or heartless; like with your mother, it's survival. In cases like this, families who are at 4 times the poverty level, may very well be much worse off than those at or below the poverty level, in terms of what they have left after paying for their bills, their rent/mortgage, and their outrageous medical premiums under the proposed legislation.

I agree we need to reform health care; the current legislation, at least what has been made public, ain't it. It would kill the middle class, and if it's financed by taxing the rich, it will additionally burden the middle class as well as the working poor in the form of the increased costs of goods and services, which is how the rich pay their taxes... in other words, they don't pay them, we do...

While it has all the right intentions, the legislation is hastily and poorly conceived, and leaves many of the things which make health care expensive, such as the high cost of malpractice insurance, overbearing litigation, and defensive medical practices, completely untouched. If we fix those things first, and then put together a health care plan that will truly work for all Americans, I think the Democrats would find they'd have the bipartisan support they say they want.

This is what I'm talking about! There is a problem with the Health Care industry period. There's less concern about people's health and more about profits. $700 every three months? Ridiculous! Say you were to loose your job tomorrow, totally possible in this economy (knock on wood), your insurance premium would triple if you elect to keep the current plan your employer provides. Try paying that without a job? You'll clear out your savings in a year. And if you can't afford that and want to purchase a new plan, you'd probably be hard put to find a company to insure your family because of your pre-existing conditions. This is something the current plan tries to solve. I never said the plan was perfect. But now is the time. I hate to say this, but I doubt any Republican president would ever put this on the table and push hard for it like Obama has. So instead of playing partisan politics, our Senate needs to amend the bad things and keep the good, because the plan has potential and it is on the table. It might not be on the table four years from now. If we don't pass it now, I doubt we'll have reform for a long time.

And, the middle class is all but dead thanks to the Mortgage crisis. The rich sticking it to us another way to recoup profits is speculation. And I don't think Malpractice, or litigation, etc need to be done first. It can be added to said proposal on the table now. And I believe Obama mentioned that in his speech. And please elaborate on your insurance being raised based on income, because I am not aware of that part of the plan. Perhaps the real solution is to socialize medicine. There I said it.