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Pro-life, but with a few requirements

By: CaliforniaMike send a private message
Glendale : CA : USA | 2 months ago  
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Views: 1,440

One of the responses to my post on health care yesterday asked why if health care is a right, isn't it also a right for the unborn.

It's a good question.

I am a Roman Catholic who tries to maintain a nuanced view on the question of abortion, and folks on both sides seem to disagree with me while at the same time admitting I have a point.

In fact, I explained my position to campaign workers for presidential candidate Gary Bauer -- who was staunchly anti-abortion -- in 2000 and they said it was reasonable.

Here's where I stand:

I believe life begins at conception and that anytime we take a life, we are doing a bad thing -- even in cases of rape or incest. That said, I would not support overturning Roe vs. Wade unless we made some other changes along with it.

Too many people on the right who call themselves pro-life are actually only pro-birth. They have little interest in what happens to children once they are born. I believe that if we are going to encourage -- or even coerce -- women to have their babies, we need to help them.

That includes pre-natal care, parenting courses and even paid time off as needed during pregnancy. It includes adoption counseling if they want to give up the baby. It includes post-natal care and continuing medical care, as well as inexpensive and safe day care for mothers who want to keep their babies. It includes fully funding Head Start and providing income subsidies to make sure these kids have a chance in life.

I would do all this for the same reason I would not support an exception for rape and incest. It is terrible for a woman to be the victim of either, but as I have heard others say, why punish the baby (by killing it) because the dad is an a******.

What we need to do is this country to reduce abortions is to create a culture in which children matter. If we're honest with ourselves, our current culture is exactly the opposite of that. We prey on kids with advertising, we sexualize them at an early age and we make them suffer for the shortcomings of their parents.

Look at how many children are homeless.

Do we really want to blame them for that?

I have never been a fan of Newt Gingrich, but even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while. Gingrich's comments about how some children would be far better off in orphanages was ridiculed as something out of "Oliver Twist," but he really wasn't wrong.

Before we could ever legally overturn Roe, we would also have to reduce the number of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. I'm sorry to disillusion my right-wing friends, but abstinence-only education is not the way to go here.

When I had the father-son "sex talk" with my own son, this is what I told him.

"It would be a terrible mistake for you to have sex before you're an adult. There are so many aspects to sexuality where your body thinks it's ready before your intellect is, and for all the problems you can cause for yourself, including horrible diseases, it's much worse for the girl.

"In fact, you can ruin a girl's life by getting her pregnant, either by forcing her to have a child before she is ready for it or by her having an abortion and then spending years dealing with the emotional consequences.

"You can have fun without having sex. But if you are going to disregard what I say and go your own way on this, please use a condom. It won't keep you perfectly safe, but it is the one thing you can do to improve the odds."

Some of my friends call that a mixed message; others call it common sense.

We need to educate our children about how you get pregnant. We need to teach them the other consequences of sex. And we need to show them what they can do to protect themselves if they decide to go ahead.

We're never going to eliminate abortions. Women have been having abortions since Biblical times; we aren't going to stop that.

But there is no question that we cheapen our culture and we cheapen our respect for life when we legalize terminating innocent lives.

I know a lot of you are going to disagree with me on this, but I have worked for years to come up with a consistent position on life issues, and here it is:

I'm against abortion.

I'm against capital punishment.

I'm against euthanasia.

I'm against assisted suicide.

I'm against elective war.

When it comes to life issues, leave it to God to decide who lives and who dies.

A culture that values life in all forms is a more moral one than one that doesn't.

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Post a Comment Comments: 34
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Posted By Melissa_Newman Melissa_Newman | 2 months ago
Hi CaliforniaMike, I was raised Catholic too and I understand your point of view. It would be nice for women to have the kind of financial care you are talking about in your article but unfortunately that is just living in a dream world. We can't even provide universal healthcare for everyone let alone women and children in poverty. Your theory would reduce abortions but I think you are missing the point about the issue of abortion. It's not about whether you believe abortion is right or wrong it is all about the government interfering with the women's right to do what they want with their own body. Too many women in low income communities are raising children in single parent household and in poverty in order to raise children. I'm not saying that children don't have a right to live but they deserve the right to be born at the right time and to live comfortably. People right now are worried about Obama controlling their lives I'm sure the same people would be outraged if Obama was trying to force women to have children if they don't want to. Unfortunately men don't get the chance to be the gender that has to be the pregnant one, but I always wonder how men would handle it. Would men settle for allowing other men tell them what to do with their body? Men are much too stubborn for that.
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Reply By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
Yes, well the government is now placing price tags on human life at all levels. And the reason so many are living in poverty is also due to government moves and manipulations.We are now saving Wall Street, at the cost of the American people for a "global" economy."What could be more clear than that. It is the "world" government now that has priority, not the sovereign states or citizens in this country, with those in Washington.And many religions don't believe in medical intervention in the slighests as "God's will."And with all the prenatal care and such that is now given, our birth rate still is now below that of Cuba. So as with everything, education and providing those sources is not the cure all, and large families were needed due to lack of adequate birth control and needs in agricultural communities.Our government stopped supporting marriage actually long ago, and men for the most part have been the beneficiaries really. Since in the past, men felt a moral obligation and the government also provided a means for women, if they did decide to go through with the pregnancy for whatever reason, were at least provided for in some manner - whether caregiving or financially - by both of the reponsible parties.Now we have single mothers both having to provide, and also work since there are still very few women that give up their babies for the fathers to rear in the early formative years. Many men don't even have relationships with their kids until they become adults due to those inherent sexual differences between nurturing and the manner God wired the different sexes in that respect.
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Posted By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
I as a non-Catholic would have to disagree due to also religious and moral reasons as it appears Mike yours have some basis on religion also. I believe your views might hold weight if this was a country that also recognized those moral and religious basis for both our Constitution, and the founders intent, but which has been "progressively" altered and misconstrued for political and corporate economic reasons most of all.I disagree, of course, on the Pope's positions in that God creates all life, and that life begins from conception in my reading of scripture and the teachings of Christ. He never addressed it, by the way, in his earthly life although as raised in a strict Jewish household (and thus fulfillment of "the Law" of the Ten Commandments and Prophets) and since at the time the penalty for adultery was death by stoning, there were many women who were pregnant most likely in which those fetuses were killed along with the mother. They also did not believe nor practice intermarriage with unbelievers or "gentiles" so that also would mean that a child of rape would questionably be held in their society or accorded "legitimacy."In Genesis, God also set forth his plans for marriage and for children in the creation of Adam and Eve and with the commandment to "go forth and multiply." In other words, he gave them the gift of procreation and physical desire, which also then would result in them, not he, creating new life. As with his directives on caring for the plants and animals of the field which he put in man's care, he also demanded sacrifices of animals as sin offerings - so God's values on life were also not unconditional at all.He did, of course, also take David and Bathsheba's son created "in sin" as the price they eventually paid for their adultery.So I do believe that life actually begins with viability (God "breathed" life into Adam remember) which occurs at around the end of the third or fourth month now due to medical and research advances which have occurred, and also women now eating better and more natural foods as were eaten in biblical times by many nowadays.And that God's plan also provided that optimally, any child so conceived should be between two committed and consenting adults of the opposite gender in order to have as both role models, and for their care. Not daycare programs or Headstart. Which are great programs, but are nothing more than factory environments for kids and no matter how caring those individuals may be, not the parents. And whether your believe it or not, it is a parent's right to raise a child in the manner they see fit, even if you would disagree on aspects since that is their child, not yours or the state's. And I hate to say it but it is now being proven that most kids in foster care in this century were better off even in some of those labeled "abusive" home environments, when many who are foster parents are simply in it for the state and federal grant monies involved in that care.Your ideas again to me are nothing more than "socializing" childbirth in this country. Rather than respecting the individuals rights, and God's actual plan and scriptural references.So I am against any non-medically necessitated premature delivery (not abortion as it has been defined and understood by the people and media today, since "to abort" merely means "to end.") after the third month, and if such an event occurs, then legislation mandating that all "reasonable efforts" be taken to save both the baby and mother's lives, but if push comes to shove the mother's life should be primary if there are other children or at the couple's direction (and I know this also is contrary to Catholic teaching, which puts priority of the baby's over the mother's - but God views life no matter what stage equally according to my reading).Interesting on your take, but as a Christian and not Catholic, I feel I also have evidence to support more my positions, and couldn't disagree with the Pope more on this one.
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Posted By CHEXMIX CHEXMIX | 2 months ago
Thanks for sharing your perspective with us. I have a few things I'd like to say:I don't believe being pro-choice means you are anti-life. I believe it means that every woman has a right to choose what she will do with her own body. One can be against abortion and take that as a personal choice not to have one. But why force your conviction on someone else?I'm a little surprised at your stance on rape and incest. I don't think your view on that is a popular one. As a woman, I have to respectfully say that perhaps your privilege as a man does not allow you to fully understand or even comprehend what it would be like to carry the child of your rapist for 9 months, let alone raise it. You will never be raped or father a child by your own father because you simply can't. You will never truly understand, otherwise the argument would not be as simple as "Why punish the baby because the father is an ass". It' hard enough living with the reminder of being raped, but having the product of it inside you? I hope I never have to experience that.I am Christian and I am Pro-choice because I believe that God gave us free will to act as we choose and to ultimately be judged by him/her. For that reason, I don't believe any one on this earth has the authority to take away my personal choice to make decisions for my own life.I agree that we should have counseling, prenatal care, etc. If there were more programs like this, that would reduce the amount of abortions in the first place, and I would be for that. This would provide more options for all while allowing women to maintain their rights to privacy. I've heard of some countries sterilizing women for population control against their will. For the same reason I find that wrong, I find reversing Roe Vs. Wade wrong. No government entity should interfere with what I do with my body.Lastly, you made a very poignant statement about how women will still have abortions even if it were illegal. I totally agree, which is why we should not reverse Roe Vs. Wade. I do not want to go back to they days where women are dieing by the millions because they are getting coat hange ed in an ally way because they don't have access to clean, legal services. Women are going to do it anyway, so we should make it legal and make it safe.
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Reply By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
I'd like to point out something in your last conclusion insofar as "going back to coat hanger abortions" and your stances as a Christian in being pro-choice. I am also Christian, but believe that a line in the sand must be drawn between elective abortions, and those that truly are medically necessitated. And with diagnostic procedures and advances in medicine now where pregnancy can be determined within a few hours, not days or weeks, three months is long enough to decide whether or not you want to raise that child for 18 years at minimum.And have you ever investigated or looked into just what is involved in what is involved in a partial birth abortion, which is practice in clinics across the country after the third month in which an instrument is inserted into the uterus by a doctor to puncture the skull of the fetus in order to hasten its delivery vaginally, rather than inducing labor and then waiting. It is done in this manner for corporate profits and doctor's also profit margins of those that carry out these "section and suction" type abortions, and that is morally repugnant to anyone when there are alternate methods available in such an event. And if a fetus is too large to deliver vaginally at that poiont, it isn't an abortion at all if it is elective or medically necessitated, it is a premature delivery and a distinction should be drawn between the two.And Roe is not precedent or settled law until it is codified in statute by the federal government and the several states. The Supreme Court cannot make law at all, it can simply render a decision based upon the facts of the matter before it and was never given any power at all to "make law," simply interpret the written Constitution.And the legal parameters and definition of life was never written into it, since there were abortions at the time it was written I am sure, but the founders left that to the several states to deal with as part of their duties according to the desire of the citizens of those states.So hearing Roe actually was one of those "politically" brought cases so that the legislators in the states and federal government could then escape such a moral question by using the court as their scapegoat most of all. And even the original Roe has had a change of tune, since that case was not narrowly defined in most of the states either, but has been given broad stroke application in many, and really only dealt with abortion in the first trimester at its core.Not thereafter.
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Posted By amalgam80 amalgam80 | 2 months ago
II know this question may cause problems but this really is an honset question when it comes down to the argument that it's a woman's body and her right to either have an abortion or not, I really think about this a lot when determining my stance on abortion: The bady is in the woman's body, but doesn't the baby have its own body that the woman is trying to kill?That whole concept that it's a woman's right to choose because it's her body has always bothered me.Based on that train of thought, then why should a father pay child support or even be around to help raise the kid. The kid came from her body, what's it got to do with the father.Like to hear what people think about that.
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Reply By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
Which is the point. It isn't totally a matter of it being her body to do with as she likes when it comes to late term abortions especially, since there is clearly another life involved. And when someone kills a pregnant woman, they are charged not only with murdering the mother, but also the fetus.So that argument is totally ridiculous, and so was the spin that was placed that this was a privacy issue. When the privacy issue really has to do with American citizens against governmental interference, not placing legal restrictions to protect especially the voices of the unborn once they are viable.And doctors also who are put in moral dilemmas themselves many times over this issue after a certain stage of development.
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Posted By Melissa_Newman Melissa_Newman | 2 months ago
The reason why I believe that women have the right to choose is because we were born into this gender and have to deal with the consequences more than men. A man can walk out on the woman if wants to, men don't have to be unemployed for months as women do if they become pregnant, and men don't have to give up their dreams or goals as women do if the pregnancy happens at a young age or at the wrong time. You can also think about how women have progressed since Eve. Women are so much more powerful in society since Christianity began. We have worked really hard to be equal in a male dominated society. So, why should we give up our career goals? Why should a man have a right to dictate in a situation that will cause more harm to the woman? You have to admit if you are a women... Men have no idea what it is like to be a women. We are not just baby makers anymore.I think that a woman's decision to get an abortions isn't taken lightly. It is the hardest decision a woman has to make because it goes against everything women are suppose to represent. It is based on their own personal circumstances. The fathers have a right to stick around and be supportive and play a important part in raising a child. I think if a women is supported enough by family and her partner then they would take the risk of raising a child at the wrong time. The presence of a father in a childs life is worth more than child support payments.
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Reply By CaliforniaMike CaliforniaMike | 2 months ago
Melissa, I understand what you are saying and agree with you up to a point. But if -- and for some people it's a big "if" -- we accept that life begins at conception, taking a life is far more than a choice.Believe me, I see this all as part of a much bigger thing. I'm not about forcing women to have kids they can't afford.I just think we are a better society when we value life.
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Posted By AnneHart AnneHart | 2 months ago
The life force is everything. But in trillions of years, the dark energy in the universe will rip apart every atom. Then everything will start over again as the atoms draw together by gravity. It's recycle, reincarnation, recycle and over and over again.
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Posted By Changez Changez | 2 months ago
Does it really matter about our opinions, since abortion tends to be a very circumstantial thing. I don't think there is any way to overturn or outlaw it without opening the door to all kinds of problems. The simpler solutions are suggested by you, in educating kids about sex, in educating older people about the necessity for planned parenting, about getting women the care they need for pregnancy and for stopping or curbing a culture that promotes rampant sexuality as the basis for fulfillment in life. Free love etc. is one thing, but frat-house sex tapes are another. I agree that abortions should be avoided, but outlawed is too far.
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Posted By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
As a Christian I agree with most of what you said and like the "talk" that you gave to your son. We can try and raise kids the best we can to lead them in the right direction but we have to understand that in the long run they are their own person. Like your neighbor next door they have their own brain which can and will think for itself. You can't force them to do anything so the best course of action is, in my opinion, not shove down their throats your own beliefs but give it to them from all sides, recognizing their independence and free will. I think they'll be less like to "rebel" against what you've told them if they think you, as the parent, are open minded.
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Posted By sprocketspringer sprocketspringer | 2 months ago
Pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. Avoid getting pregnant, but if you have to get an abortion then you have to get an abortion. The living are more importnat than the as yet unborn.
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Reply By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
?? the living are more important than the as yet unborn? You don't ever HAVE to get an abortion. The unborn are alive and most of the time having a baby doesn't have life-threatening consequences for the mother . . . that speaks of selfishness to me - The Atonement Child by Francine Rivers is a great fictional book on this subject and Tilly by Frank Peretti is also very good
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Reply By Changez Changez | 2 months ago
I disagree; my mother had to have an abortion after I was born because she had a spinal problem that would have left her paralysed had she kept the child. Sometimes people get pregnant by accident and can't afford to keep the child; or know it will destroy their lives, especially in a conservative society like here. Strange thing is that in a muslim society like Pakistan, abortion is frowned upon, obviously, but if it has to be done then it is accepted. If a girl wants to keep the child, chances are she will have to marry the father; some girls just aren't ready for that, so they abort. Happened with a friend of mine recently.
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Posted By Write4Life Write4Life | 2 months ago
Too many people on the right who call themselves pro-life are actually only pro-birth.It's a right and left and center thing Mike... not just a right and it's absolutely true!
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Reply By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
please, tell me the difference between pro-life and pro-birth . . . I feel like you guys are throwing around terms with no real thought behind them. I also feel that if a woman becomes pregnant the father has no say over an abortion or not. If the man doesn't want the girl to have the child then he should of kept it in his pants. And I agree they should give up all rights to the child if they don't want it to be born.
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Reply By Write4Life Write4Life | 2 months ago
pro-life = life begins at conception. ........... pro-birth = the child once born is taken care of.
Reply By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
I think I would reverse that, since it would seem that there are more that are pro-birth with their views on what others should do with the children they create, but don't want to fund the costs of those children once they are born or if the means are not there by especially young kids to provide for their basic needs.Pro-lifers would also defend the rights of the women to determine and weigh their ability to carry out that enormous responsibility alone, and also value all life in all stages...and would have been outraged, for example, at the Teri Schiavo decision and seen it for the actually judicially sanctioned murder it actually was.
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Reply By Write4Life Write4Life | 2 months ago
ALMAGAM80 - Again, this went to the wrong location...

I am assuming your question is posed in a situation where the "father" wants the woman to have an abortion and the woman does not.I think you're right here - he should have rights too and that said - he should reliquish forever ALL parental rights. Even if the child become a multi-millionare - no right - ever.Just my thought.
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Reply By MorganB MorganB | 2 months ago
You can value life and still be pro-choice. It's always a man who says pro-life because they just won't, and never will, understand why it's such a huge issue that women have the CHOICE to do what they want with their body. Just because I may not want to have a baby at that time, doesn't mean I don't value that child inside of me. Do you have any idea how many women go away traumatized after having an abortion? For whatever reason they wanted to have the abortion, it doesn't mean that they hate the unborn child. It's just a difficult choice they had to make because of current circumstances. Taking away our choice is like taking away our right to vote again. I do believe that if a dedicated couple suddenly found out they were about to have a child and weren't sure if they could take care of it, then it's up to both of them to decide. However, that's not always a luxury.
Reply By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
Well . . . I'm most definitely a woman and am still pro-life. I'm sorry, but with the exception of rape, it's your fault you had sex and got pregnant in the first place. If you can't take responsibility for that then that's not anybody's fault but your own and the baby shouldn't have to suffer for it. As far as not being able to take care of the baby . . . it's called adoption. There are a lot of couples out there who can't have kids and if you take a proactive role you can determine who get's the baby. And I'm sorry but if you can kill a baby just because you don't want it and it's inconvenient for you . . . you definitely don't value it or give a rat's a$$ about it. Abortion arguments don't exist because we want to take a woman's rights away they exist because abortion is taking the life of another human being but not just that I've never heard of a single woman who's come out of an abortion better off, most of them are scared and hurt for life not only would I like to spare a baby's life but I'd also like to spare women that hurt.
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Posted By MorganB MorganB | 2 months ago
@WhiteDragon Alright, I'm feeling as if you're attacking me for my beliefs. Thanks so much. You said with the exception of rape, how do you know I wasn't referring to rape? Hm? And adoption? Hah! You must be delusional if you think there's a couple ready to adopt every single child. Go take a gander at the orphanages and adoption homes then come back and tell me every single child can be adopted. I never once said I would kill a baby because it's 'inconvenient'. Just because I'm not catholic, doesn't mean I don't have morals, ya know. Please, clarify before attacking. Thank you.
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Reply By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
I'm not catholic . . . . I never said EVERY child - I'm not attacking your beliefs just stating how I feel, sorry if it made you feel that way. But calling someone delusional is pretty much the same thing.
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Posted By CaliforniaMike CaliforniaMike | 2 months ago
I completely agree with the definition of pro-life and pro-birth. I hold no brief for people who aren't willing to help a woman who makes the choice for life raise that baby.As for "it's your fault you had sex," this is one of the reasons so many anti-abortion people are accused of being anti-sex.I want women to choose to have babies. If they do, we should help them.Period.
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Reply By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
Well I'm not anti-sex but it does ring true. People know what can happen and plenty of people can have safe sex and not get pregnant. If you choose to be careless, it's their fault. And I agree with your statement as far as helping the woman. I would never tell a woman to have a baby then just hang them out to dry and leave them alone. They need support on all fronts, especially if the father is not in the picture.
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Reply By Changez Changez | 2 months ago
Let's start a Junior-anti-sex league. Ring any bells?
Reply By CHEXMIX CHEXMIX | 2 months ago
Changez,It appears that some people believe that someone who has made a bad choice in their life, should be punished forever for that choice. I'm sure that child would grow up with a lot of love from that parent! I can't even respond to those claims because it's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. However I can say this...

I grew up in South Central, Los Angeles in an economically depressed community where teen pregnancy, drug abuse, and gang violence is a way of life. I had a friend when I was 14 who wasn't sure who her father was, because her mother was a crack abuser and slept with many men to pay for her habit. One man her mother told her was her father prostituted her out at the age of 10 for money. After he was put in jail where her mother was for drug abuse, she went to stay with the other man who she believed to be her father. He was a child molester and rapist. I know for a fact because he tried it with me! She became pregnant, I can only speculate by him. She was sexually active but sometimes that is the result of sexual abuse. Long story short, when she became pregnant, and since she had no one else to turn to at age 14, she asked my mother to take her to the clinic to get an abortion. I am glad my mother is a forward thinking person. Today, my friend has two adopted sons and works for the Department for Child and Family Services to try to protect abused kids. She had a lot of hell in her life. When the child-molesting father was put in jail, she grew up in the system and suffered even more abuse. Fortunately she was able to turn that experience into something positive. Having a boyfriend and sister who work in the mental health field with abused children, I know she definitely overcame the odds against her. She is an anomaly. If she had that baby at 14? I don't know how different her life would have turned out. This is a true story!

I say all this to say, not all people who choose to have an abortion are child-murdering people who are selfish and irresponsible and should be punished with a baby to raise. And not all people believe life begins at conception which is not contested anywhere here. We don't all share the same beliefs so surely we should not all be held to someone elses belief systems. I'm not pro abortion, but I believe people should have a right to decide under life changing circumstances. If you don't agree, choose not to have an abortion. No need to force your beliefs down other peoples throats. But, I think a lot of people feel the way they do here, because they grew up a different way. Perhaps they did not grow up with these problems in their middle class communities, so it's so easy to pass judgment on others who have actually faced adversity in their lives. It makes me so angry. I've been following all the comments trying to hold back from going off and it makes me want to cry because these people here, truly don't understand or have a clue about how other people live their lives. So I address this comment to you because you seem like you have reasoning skills and aren't a callused heartless person who would take away other peoples choice like America is some sectarian dictatorship where women are forcefully sterilized. It's the same difference. Shouldn't I have a choice to decide the quality of life I want to live? I respect others right to disagree, but saying that people are irresponsible in such a blanket generalized statement is BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't agree with it or respect it!

CaliforniaMike, although we disagree on the issue of abortion I do think you make poignant points about having more social programs. I live in Los Angeles and your profile says you hail from Glendale, so if you'd like to have a cup of coffee and talk about what we could do to make a personal impact on reducing the need for Abortions, I'd love to brainstorm about what we could do. So drop me an email if you'd like to discuss it.
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Posted By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
As far as CHEMEX again, where do you get your information? Women dying in the millions from coat hanger abortions? The practice wasn't done that significantly at all, since there were orphanages and in prior generations, the moral teachings on the sanctity of human life actually resulted in most of those women either carrying those children to term and raising them, or giving them up for adoption, or placing them in orphanages after birth. The instances of those coat hanger abortions were rare given even the U.S. population at the time, and those partial birth abortions that are going on now far greater number in one year alone than all those women who were placed in that desperate position in prior generations.
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Posted By Ross1776 Ross1776 | 2 months ago
And it doesn't appear any of these comments are going where they were meant to be placed, so is this site having technical problems?
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Posted By WhiteDragon WhiteDragon | 2 months ago
@CHEXMIX - I'm glad you feel children are punishments, and I quote ". . . should be punished with a baby to raise." Your doing the same thing your accusing others of doing, being judgmental. Just because I believe abortion is wrong doesn't mean I've lived some happy go-lucky, problem free life. I would say that your friend is an exception in most cases. The majority of women do not come out of abortions happy and "problem free." They come out hurt and scared for life, both emotionally and mentally. I also highly resent the fact that just because I believe abortion is wrong and most of the time the consequence of poor judgment (I never said that was the reason 100% of the time) your calling me judgmental. You have no idea who I am or what I've been through or what I believe (outside of abortion being wrong) so don't pretend you do, words on a page are a pretty poor way to judge someone since you can't gather from them the way in which someone is saying something. My problem with abortion is not that I want to take choice away from women. My problem with abortion is that a)it's taking the life of an innocent child (and yes science has stated that life begins at conception) and b)the impact that abortion has on women. I've also not said I believe abortion should be made illegal nor that a woman shouldn't have the right to choose all I've said is that I think it's wrong and that we should do more for women who are facing that type of situation not only before but also after if it comes to that.
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Posted By Changez Changez | 2 months ago
Chexmix; thanks for sharing that story and for telling me about your situation. That's y I feel it is important to allow women the right to an abortion as a matter of practical consideration; this is not a matter that can be conclusively debated morally since there are too many conflicting religious and cultural points of view, however, we can see that ethically there are certain guidelines and practical considerations that make having the right more important than stopping people from having that right. I don't like abortion myself, but if it was illegal, I know a lot of people who would find their live very different and perhaps not for the better.
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Reply By CHEXMIX CHEXMIX | 2 months ago
WhiteDragon,

I don't feel children are punishments. It was you who said, "If you choose to be careless, it's your fault". My statement is what I believe to be your assesment of the situation. If their pregnancy is their fault, and since they made a mistake or poor choice, the result of that choice should be a child to raise for at least 18 years because they weren't "responsible" as you say. I don't believe children are born into loving families that way. So excuse me but I think your statement was ludicrous. Speaking of ludicrous, also ludicrous is your indignation of my judgment of you since you are just as guilty of being judgmental. Don't be a hypocrite. And if I judged you so what? Are you not guilty of judging people who choose to have abortions? So I guess we have come full circle.

If you feel angry or offended because you think my statements were directed at you, perhaps it's your own bottled up guilt as I never mentioned you by name and you were not the only one who made statements about who is at fault. I don't know your life but I know what elitism sounds like. I think someone who recognizes this as a multifaceted issue, would not just say "it's your fault" in such simple terms. If you are resentful because of how I read your words on a page then qualify your statements. Tell me what your background is if you want me to better understand where you're coming from.

I didn't say my friend came out of an abortion "problem free". She spent the next four years being juggled from group home to group home. I'm saying that it was the right choice for her to make and she was the only person that could and should make that decision for her own life. She didn't come out and have a "happy and problem free" life. By the way, it's statements like that that set me off. They reek of oversimplification of a complex situation and a complete misunderstanding or disregard of the point of the story in the first place. Perhaps you don't really care and that's your perogative. I'm not here to change your opinion as people have strong convictions about this issue and I doubt I can no matter what I say. My friend was able to learn and take something positive from her experience and have a second chance at living her life the way she wanted to.

So WhiteDragon, get out of your ivory tower and stop preaching to me about what you believe. I don't have a problem with people who disagree with abortion. I have a problem with people who want to take that choice away from women because of that belief. If that doesn't apply to you, then my previous statement was not for you. I don't care what your personal beliefs are otherwise and you have a right to believe what you want as we live in America where you can openly express your views.

Your statements are laced with rhetoric on this page such as "taking the life of an innocent child". There is a lot of debate in the scientific community about when a fetus is a child. I agree that we should try to reduce the amount of abortions through education before and not just after a child is born. So there's nothing to be resentful of and get your panties in a bunch over. I would not choose to have an abortion myself, but I'm sure glad I have the choice.
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Reply By CHEXMIX CHEXMIX | 2 months ago
To Ross:

Taken directly from Wiki:

"A study concluded in 1968 determined that over 1.2 million illegal abortions were performed every year in the United States, a portion of which were performed by women acting alone. The study suggested that the number of women dying as a result of self-induced abortions exceeded those resulting from abortions performed by another person. Due to estimated underreporting of illegal procedures, these numbers may not be accurate. A 1979 study noted that many women who required hospitalization following self-induced abortion attempts were admitted under the pretext of having had a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion."

Millions was not meant to be taken literally in regards to coat hanger abortions, but thousands if not millions of women died or became seriously infected by illegal abortions in general during the days it was outlawed. I think an abortion should be safe for all. And if one woman died out of not having access to safe, clean, medical facilities to have an abortion it is reason enough. I don't think a numerical figure should put value on whether or not a woman should have a choice not to have a child whether or not you think the number is significant enough Ross. The point is women are going to continue to have abortions legal or not, and they should not have to put themselves in significant danger of dieing or having serious medical problems as a result.

And what do you mean partial births going on now? Some believe that if the fetus can survive outside of the mother's body, independent of her it qualifies as a child. Otherwise, every time a man ejaculates into a condom he is committing murder. If you don't agree with abortion you should continue not to participate in it. I think women should still have the choice.
Reported by Michael Rappaport
Michael Rappaport

Member Since May 27, 2009

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