No Fun for a Muslim Woman by the Pool This Summer

Muslims need to stop discriminating against women. Why do women even follow Islam? Out of all of the religions, Islam is the most demeaning towards women. Period.

You're right. It's so frustrating to see that in the Modern age still.

Muslim men protecting their women? What utter codswollop! Protecting their possessions and proving their inadequate manhood is more like it.When will Muslim and any other oppressed women realise that they are not powerless? They have the ability to break this chain of discrimination against their kind. Women, in their role of bringing up their children can instil into those young minds the wrong that is being practiced by making women lesser citizens and eventually, can do a lot towards changing the mind set of Islam. Give me the child until it is seven... It may take time but it is possible.

I agree that it is a cycle - that each woman who is forced into complying with the system passes on the submissiveness to her children. However, I don't know if their can break the chain of discrimination as easy as they'd like. Read my comment below?

It's not going to be an easy process.. It's an very old process. But, it isn't impossible!

I agree that it is a cycle - that each woman who is forced into complying with the system passes on the submissiveness to her children. However, I don't know if their can break the chain of discrimination as easy as they'd like. Read my comment below?

You're right. It is up to the women. Protecting possessions is one thing. Treating women as possessions may be what we are seeing here. However, I believe it would be a long grievous fight for that child to understand their power if the mother was never the role model.

Well i believe if muslim women is tortured by doing Hijab(covering herself),than what can i say about NUNS,they also cover themselves and they are consider to be the best people of their religion so according to u they are also in some darkness,do u non believers say the same things to them or respect them.Secondly itz not only for women,Men has to also cover a certain limit with garments and his limit starts from belly button to knee.Now the question arrises why the men has little area to cover than women becuase since the beginging of the wolrd men has dominated the society so women has to secure her self and this is the best way to secure her(insects came on the lollypop when it is uncover).And last but not least She prefer the joy of Heaven than the silly joy of this world which has to end some day .PLEASE DUNT REPLY IN AN INDECENT WAY,IF U HAVE GOT GENUINE POINT THAN DISCUSS HERE,BUT NO NEED OF ABUSIVE REPLIES.AS I HAVE NOT USE ABUSIVE LANGUAGE

I wouldn't reply with abusive language sir. Anyway, i am a believer and you just said it yourself what I was referring to "men has little area to cover than women because since the beginning of the world men has dominated the society so women has to secure her self and this is the best way to secure her. So, we disagree. I believe times have changed and NO the world doesn't have to end, only by the Red Planet which will be by the sun in a few billion years. As of now, people of all religions and races should be free (even in marriage) and learn to live amongst each other in peace.

I reiterate the question asked by ahol888: why do women even follow Islam? In my opinion it's a choice. And while the religion very obviously discriminates against women, I don't think Muslim women are prohibited from converting to another religion nor strictly following the dictates of the religion. I'm trying to empathize with the woman in the picture and, if my husband was that kind of Muslim who will impose strict compliance to the requirements of Islam, the first thing I want to do is get a divorce and enjoy the company of the world full of wonderful men who know how to respect other peoples' freedom.

I don't think divorce or as other people put it "women standing up" is as easy as we'd like to wish it were. There are many situations where women are forced not *exactly* by the religion, but by the pressure from their family, their parents, their society. What would happen when one Muslim woman abandons her oppressive religion that her family all accepts? She would be considered a rebel, an outcast - where would she go? She would be scolded for not respecting her family and the God of the religion. She might get beaten. And then where would all her exertion to standing up for her belief in women's rights lead her? Unless she had the resources to leave the home, I can understand the difficulty in "not following Islam". I can liken the situation to my family where my parents are strict about not going out with friends and about following the career path of either law or medicine. It's hard to disobey them. To tell them that they're wrong. That not all people are evil and selfish and try to take advantage of you. That there is more to life than a "stable" job that is high in status and money. They don't understand. My bringing it up leads to arguments and that's about it. And then there is the other element of guilt. The Islam woman would feel guilty for going against her parents, much as I feel guilty for following my interests which will not provide enough to support my family. It's difficult to balance what one desires and feels is right with what a whole society or one's family deems as "correct".

That's right. You are correct about how difficult it would be for one woman to do so. It would have to be a rebellion, an act of hundreds of women co-existing together, standing up together with the law back them up as a democratic society, which America has been trying to help those societies do- coexist together with equal laws. But, the whole thing has been distracted by massive killings and sidetracking the societies in danger of terrorism and installing fear so nothing changes but the act of protecting one from terror and death.. but, we're getting side tracked again. The lady was in America. But, we protect rights of religious laws. So, it doesn't matter if they live here or not. America can't interfere with their customs.

I know! Isn't it sad to witness something we feel as unfair but not be able to stand up and point it out because the other will defend it as their custom? I'm not saying that we should go up to each other and tell each other that he or she is wrong, but I think if everyone was a little more open-minded to hearing both sides, changes could be made more easily and happily - changes could be made in order to better oneself and better one's harmony in relationships. Instead, however, people don't often know how to approach the delicate topic and other people get defensive.

I'm not sure divorce is an easy solution in that religion. In fact, we have some real complicated issues across the board associated with Islam.

wooooooow!! easy people!! Islam does not discriminate against women not at all, Islam is the religion that stopped the Arabs from burying baby girls alive and sez women have equal rights to men and should seek education.seriously, maybe a little research before u put ur opinions in!secondly, there is a swimming pool everywhere just for females!where she can get all the fun she needs with out any men fiesting on her nakedness.and also Islam does not encourage men imposing anything on the women, it is his duty to advice but he cannot impose.just because snow white had a bite of a poisonous apple does not mean all apples are poison, it is just the same. it is practiced differently but if you study the religion, you will know what i mean!

I'm not really sure what world you're living in. But, my dream last night was that I saw the whole world from one angle and it wasn't very big. If you read the news, Muslim children are being beaten to death by these angry women, and some of the women who are breaking the laws are be beheaded. Seriously?! A pool for only females? When I lived in South Korea, the saunas were separated by gender only because you go into the spa naked. Women don't need a separate pool if wearing a bathing suit. And if the women are causing that much of an arousal, then someones been in hiding too long!! It's a cause for sickness. Humans were created half naked and it's their freedom to live that way. Sure, cover the sacred areas. Please I don't want to see them either.

I agree. Woman should not have to go to a separate pool. Yes, that would solve her current situation of not being able to have fun at the pool, but I think what this thread is addressing is the much bigger issue - the unfairness and injustice of having to resort to a different location to have fun to begin with.I have a question, though, heathereden. What is the relationship of this sentence: "if you read the news, Muslim children are being beaten to death by these angry women, and some of the women who are breaking the laws are be beheaded": to the rest of your comment? I don't mean it in any rude way. I just wanted to understand.Anyhow, mona37, I think what people are referring to as "discriminating against women" and oppressing women is the fact that the lives of Islam women is very controlled and restricted. As in, in this situation, she cannot be free and join in on the fun with her family. Should she be forced to go to a separate pool for just women and not be able to enjoy the beautiful day with her family?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/18/national/main4808738.shtml (woman beheaded)http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=7028 (child beaten to death)

Humans were created "half naked"?

created naked, but figured leaves and clothe to hide the family jewels ok.

why do they Go to Pool.

Most likely, she just goes to spend time with her family - even if it means a large portion of the time will be spent ... separated from the family. It doesn't make sense, yes. But I think she kind of *has to* go (in a sense). Eastern cultures have quite a different mentality to them. As a child and even as a person in my late teens, I had to go everywhere with my family - even if I would sit there and do nothing, just waiting for them to finish whatever they had to do on their own agenda. The freedom enjoyed in western cultures is quite envied by us individuals trapped in a family with sometimes very different ideas than those surrounding us. When my brother had to take a medical school exam in a different city five hours away, we all went in the car and drove down there. Quite a waste of time, no? But that might explain one reason why she went to the pool.

In some cases, Americans don't actually utilize and appreciate their families unity like some Asians do. However, yes, we are envied because we are the Land of the Free. But, in the case of Islam, I agree it could be somewhat of a "have to go" kind of circumstances day in and day out without much choice because of the superstitions and archaic customs. I don't respect Islam, unorthodox, those who worship Allah, however, I do disrespect oppression, once again.

hahah totally agree seems like a waste of time to go to the pool when they can't even enjoy it. Its like putting a piece of delicious cake in front of someone and telling them they can't eat it!

sure, I see your point. but, it may not be the solution.

why not?

You are confusing culture with religion. In some countries that now have muslim majorities, women don't feel comfortable in swimsuits around men. That is a cultural thing. In other countries that are also muslim majority that's not the case. I come from a very liberal family, by any reckoning, and my sister didn't like swimming with a lot of guys ogling her, not in Pakistan at least, where guys do ogle. Yes it is repressed in many ways and repressing it only makes it worse, but that is a cultural deficiency that can be cured by education so that people also start interpreting the religion correctly. I am not religious but if you insist on bringing it into a conversation and not delineating between it and a culture, then that is a matter for contention. E.G."When I lived in South Korea, the saunas were separated by gender only because you go into the spa naked. Women don't need a separate pool if wearing a bathing suit." - In some places women don't have to wear swim suits and the ideas of decency vary; go to a swimming pool in Amsterdam and you'll see what I mean. That's why Europeans think Americans are prigs and Americans think Europeans are vulgar. It is a matter of perspective and understanding and correct information.

I understand your explanation about culture, and I have considered it as a part of their culture. But, I have also seen it as one of an unhappy part of their culture. So, more education about it.. Yes, that's always the solution.

One of my friend in the begining has said that this world will never end,only sun will end,so without a sun can u believe this world will servive.And secondly here you people are talking about muslims women and in reality no muslims women is annoyed with it but ur views show that u people are annoyed,even muslims womem are annoyed when someone stop them for using Hijab.And thirdly some one has said that women should only cover there sensitive parts,so my dear what is this hypocracy,u are not obeying my limits but imposing ur limits on her,they should be free to be naked.And the rate of Rape in Foreign countries is much higher than that in Muslims countries,Why is that so.And again I will ask the same thing why Nuns in christianity are fully covered,OOOO so much injustice.

I think you raise an interesting point about (I think?) the hypocrisy of people complaining about Muslim women not being allowed to cover up when Christian nuns are forced to cover up and nobody yells at them. I think the different, however, is that nuns of Christianity have already chosen to take on that lifestyle (most of them anyways - I mean, I guess some nuns are forced into it by family or other circumstances). So what I think people who are speaking out about the oppression of Muslim women is that their culture and society is repressing them and holding them back from self-expression whereas nuns have made the conscious decision to fully clothe themselves. You are right, however, that we are imposing *our* perspective on the situation. We don't know if that Muslim woman at the pool made the deliberate decision to fully clothe herself because she felt uncomfortable and wanted to be covered *herself*. But I think that's the issue -- is she being allowed to do what she and she alone wants? You also bring up a very very interesting point about rape in foreign countries being higher than in Muslim countries. I don't know if that is a true statistic, but I think you are making the connection between freedom in revealing clothing and higher rape incidents? I don't know if one can say there is a correlation, but initially, I can understand that one thinks there is...I mean, more revealing clothing leads to more temptation leads to desire leads to rape in those who can't control themselves. But then again, there is still rape in Muslim countries I am sure and I think rape is present everywhere - so I don't know about the connection you are making, but it is definitely interesting and worth thinking about!I really like having your comments in this discussion because you have a different opinion/perspective than others. I like hearing your thoughts juxtaposed to others!

rape is not about sex it is about violence...get a clue

sexual violence. get a clue yourself.

watch history.com and see that scientists know that one day, billions of years from now, we will be the red planet. I agree, until then, our world will never end. So, in that regards, Can people try and let others live freely and stop controlling their lives? Solutions by education is what will work for us, not bomb threats and violent condemnations to keep others down with laws that aren't applicable anymore or were ever. I think people are just interesting as they are,,, but when things are get tightly controlled, people and life turn ugly.

I am not saying that people should walk around naked for any reason. I am only saying that even Muslim women should be able to enjoy the swimming pool with her family at South Padre Island if her husband and daughter are too. Maybe when they go to the Mosque, the Hijab is appropriate, but to the beach? It is just unfair. And nuns are under the law of Catholicism, whom they enter in by free choice, which many Muslim women don't know anything about.

And talking about different pools is fine.If some one disagree with that point,then plz answer me why in olympics race/swimming competition or other games are divided into Men and Women,Is it a discrimination or what ??

Well, I think olympic races and swimming competitions are divided by gender because people have decided on the fact that men are genetically stronger than women. I don't know if that's true, but apparently science has proven that (?) so in order to be fair, men compete with men and women compete with women. I guess you could think of it as sex discrimination (and some strong feminist do!), but also you can think of it as leveling the competitive playing field, no?

of course men and women are created with didn't strengths and weaknesses, attributes and genetic make-up- but they were created equal.

Even today Islam gives the most rights to women,being naked is not a right basically.First A husband has to pay a certain amount to her wife after a marriage,Second A husband has to give pocket money to his wife,Third a women is allowed not to do her husbands work but if she do than she is rewarded from THE ALMIGHTY ALLAH.In islam a mother is given a very very very high rank than father,even the heaven is under mothers feet.And the line goes on and on,my dear learn the Islam.The ballance of rights is equal just the areas are different

well, i agree that heaven is feminine by nature. but, i disagree that the rights are not.

Well, it looks like unfair but we need to respect their practices.. We might find it unfair but we never know if as Christians also have practices that are also weird on their end.

Yes, of course all religions can get weird in some aspects, and sacred in others- there's truth in all. However, I will never respect oppression.

I'm sorry but I think you were seeing this woman from only your point of view. How do you know she was resentful or upset sitting pool side? You were in Texas and I don't think she was under anyone's thumb. Maybe she believes that this is something she wants to wear. Do not just make assumptions about other people. If she was soo oppressed then why wouldn't her two little girls be covered up too? You might have read the Koran but I think that man was right and you don't understand it. Probably because it's not your personal faith. It's not part of your culture it is part of this woman's' culture. Do not feel bad for her because of your misguided view of the Islam religion.

Unfortunately, you have no idea what you're talking about. You don't know me from gray, my beliefs and so forth. And yes, I did see her from my viewpoint, so are you saying that what I see is false? No. You're comment is purely an assumption that I am wrong all together on the subject. So, I would suggest that you should read the Koran yourself, the bible in many different translations, the Kierkegaard Anthology, The words of Deepak Chopra, the Illuminated Rumi, Nietzsche, the book of Mormon, and the teachings of Jesus from the Jehovah Witnesses point of view and then come back and tell me I'm wrong that what I saw was nothing but a boring day for that lady because she wasn't able to swim with her family because they were in the public and was ok.

if subjugation of women is not islam then why are women only subjugated in muslim controlled countries and in ALL muslim controlled countries?the punishment in islam for converting to another religion is deathif a woman defies her husband and/or disgraces her family they kill her...ever hear aoubt honor killings? and if honor killings are not islam then why are honor killings only done by muslimsand the difference from nuns aktabish is the nuns CHOOSE their lives they are NOT FORCED into it

the same reason women were oppressed in medieval europe; because currently many of these countries are poor and people are badly educated. Where that is not the case women are very different. Saudi arabia is a different case because they are run by a tribal war lord family.

I agree. Like I said before, the Nuns convert themselves. The honor killings need to stop. All of this violence and force is being distracted by something else and you're right lecia. The killings are coming from the Muslims and I don't care if they say it's only a section of the religion, the 'radicals'. It's happening and the oppression of the women is just one other problem. So, who ever is blind to that is in darkness. And those who say their always been war, then they are hopeless on the matters that cause the war and think there is no other way. Education!! Education!! Communication!! Communication!! Productivity!! Productivity!! Positive action!! Positive Action!!

How can you make that argument in a country (the US) that has the highest murder rate and rape rate in the world? On the surface women have rights in the states, but they are often treated as sexual objects by men and rape and sexual violence stats prove this. This is not a problem restricted to 'Muslims', and in turn, saying that all white men oppress women or all christians oppress women, or that all americans are involved in rape is just ignorant. On the surface women often have less rights in what are now known as Muslim countries, but scratch beneath the surface to see how far that goes; and recognise that things like honour killings are illegal, and criminal, but lack of education and policing prevent action on them, just as they prevent action on murders and robberies and a hundred other crimes that we deal with every day. Get-a-clue!

Honour killings are a problem, subjugation of women is a problem, couples being stoned for love marriages is a problem; ask me, I live with it, I'm a journalist, and I fight it. Another problem is the generalisations of people largely ignorant of facts on the ground or cultural references who insist on publishing stories like this that have no real reporting value and simply provoke a reaction and deepen the siege mentality that exists among the perpetrators of the violence. Being in the middle I can tell you both the stupidity of what you are doing. Get it now.

How do you know that the majority of the women are FORCED into it? It is just like any other religion people are born into it out of culture and tradition.

I agree. But I also think one can argue that being born into something out of culture and tradition is in a way being confined/forced?

it is NOT like any other religion because any other religion you can leave that religion for another or for none at all....i restate...the penalty for leaving islam is deathhow do you know the marjority of women are not FORCED into it...women have no voice at all in islam they are the property or their father and bothers and then their husbands and the penalty for speaking out against either is death

you are really ignorant. There is no such thing like that in Islam, and people do convert to christianity. Some people are different, because they are more fundamentalists, but you should find out more first.

Alright now. You are talking about orthodox followers of the religion. I'm sure you can find problems with orthodox Catholics. The majority do not practice this. I think it's a very Western Feminist ideology that would have you believe Women have no voice at all in Islam. Couldn't we say the same thing for some followers of Christianity? Let's not homogonize an entire group of people here. I agree that women should not be forced to wear Hijab, but there are 56 predominately Muslim countries, of those there are three countries whose governments force women to wear the Hijab: Afganistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. I do not downplay this type of misogony, but you are talking about the minority, not the majority. You can't assume that every woman you see who wears a burqa is oppressed or forced. That is a prejudiced assumption.

You have a point. But, then only a few countries in Africa were practicing genocide. It's a minor group of people in the world. But, do we still look away? No. We stepped in and helped. Oppression is what it is. Silent, yet deadly, indirect torture of the human spirit.

Appears a rather one sided view of this writer. Did he even speak with this women in using his Western views as stating that her eyes were "full of resentment?" In this country up until the present era, women also wore much more modest bathing attire than today, and so did men also. No thongs, or string bikinis. And don't think these were the "freedom" our founders meant by "unalienable rights" at all, with the exception of in the privacy of your own home.....and most likely this woman in her Muslim culture is afforded that right also I would bet. And most likely encouraged by her husband also in the privacy of their own home.There are as many different sects of the Muslim faith as there are of the Jewish and Christian faiths but it appears that also has been left out in this propaganda piece once again.And appears that Western interference in the customs and practices of other cultures and nations doesn't simply occur within our government in its foreign affairs. But also busybodies and gossips in some of its left wing radical loonies under the guise of "human rights," who have no problem defending the rights of who they see as "oppressed" or "victimized" animals and people, at the cost of the lives and property of their own countrymen.And appear far more concerned with others personal and "foreign" affairs, than what is occurring in their own "domestic" backyards.

Well, it sounds like you are one of those who are completely numb to any kind of issues that matter and since you don't have anything positive to say other than 'label' and 'demean' someone who cares, then maybe you should go and read something that is important to you and not worry about what you have no real sincere thought about- instead of dabbling into insulting the minds that what positive change.

And by the way, many times at public pools I took my children and did not partake or my husband took them for a swim. Why? Because I didn't feel like swimming myself, or enjoyed more being a spectator than a participant, or was having a bad hair day or didn't have a bathing suit that fit due to my ever changing shape after childbirth or between those times.Seems like this writer has an agenda, with his "resentment in her eyes," garbage without having any real knowledge of how this woman felt personally in the slightest. Or just why she may not have been swimming.Since women do swim in most of the Muslim countries in public, at one time or another. Although in much more modest attire than can be found in this country, by and large, although not in the past century, since ours is a culture now that actually promotes exhibitionism rather than modesty....ala most programming you can find on the networks that are owned primarily by Zionist owners or even now the British (Murdoch) who has a history as an exploitative media owner of both politicians, and also private citizens, and doesn't appear to have a good grasp of how this country's government differs fundamentally from Englands in the slightest.

You have a point. She could of been on her cycle (excuse) oh, tired maybe (excuse) don't forget she was on a tropical island, no but maybe she was not comfortable swimming because of the response from her husband and rather not deal with it. Hey, that would better explain the picture!!

You are only talking about certain governments that do that NOT the religion. You are just stereotyping the whole religion. There is nothing in the Koran that says that they will die that comes from their government. You are only talking about a certain number of people that are extreme. It's like the extremist in the Christianity that shoot abortion doctors.

i was not talking about the governments but you are right they also do this IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

yes, like I said, when people turn to control things get ugly.

Again I ended on with "I have a feeling that the silent will speak for themselves one day." So, I'll let those who need to speak, speak for themselves and just prepared to shut your mouth when the truth comes out! Agreed?

I'm actually not saying that there is not oppressed women in that culture. What I am saying is...How do you know if that is how that woman felt? Just because she is Muslim?

I know because of what I saw. Her eyes were not filled with excitement or love. If you look at her body language, it says closed, not open. She sat like that for hours while we were at the pool. If you think happiness is in her eyes, then I wonder if you know happiness at all.

Well honour killing is some thing which is not related to Islam but with the culture of very few tribes in Pakistan,as i live in Pakistan and in the cities of Pakistan this culture is never expected,and this type of killing is also done in other foreign coutries which is after rape but that is not an honour killing but stilling killing the women(quoting from FBI monthly Newsletter).And your holy Bible(v also recpect the bible) says That the women should cover head,if she does not than shave off her hairs .Now the christian women is disobeying Allahs words.V people really respect women in west there are several adds that really make fun of women,e.g displaying women on the BMW add in bikini and beneath that writing TEST DRIVE HER NOW.It is making fun of women,so muslim women dunt want to become a FUN.And my friend i think few women came and write here also,and they are supporting the fact of Islam so why are u worried about our sisters when they are happy.

Are you saying you took this photo on your article? Because I know I've seen this picture before on from the AP about a Muslim woman in France that could not go swimming because she was wearing her hijab and it was a pool where you had to swim naked in. And that is the girl sitting next to the pool who looks upset because she couldn't swim.

BS I took the photo. It's mine. Allvoice is the only ones who have it besides me.

HeatherDen,That's obviously not what I meant. If that's all you walked away with, you need a reality check. The point is that sterotyping a group of people based upon the minority is wrong. Only some black men rape white women. Does that make them all criminals? Do you grab your purse every time you see a black man?

Your point is clear. I do know in Timothy in the bible it says women should cover their heads in the temple. So should the Muslim woman in the mosque. But, out in public, they should be able to do as they please. Even if it is driving a BMW in a bikini!

ou obviously have very particular ideas of freedom. what if people just don't like what you say or don't agree with your idea of freedom? That's the Bush in you talking: people may not want the so called freedom you value because they value something else, because they come from a different place. You need to expand your horizons an figure that for some people, wearing a bikini isn't the end all and be all of life.

no it's not. but, at least I have the choice to wear one, not wear one, wear a cover, or not wear a cover if I choose, and that's the difference.. And it's the sad reality that some people don't have- THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AMEN IN THE NAME OF JESUS, ALLAH, YAHWEH, JAH, GOD, JEHOVAH, THE ONE CREATOR, LOVE..

I went to college, I know stereotyping is wrong. I only wrote again that one Muslim woman couldn't have fun at South Padre Island! So, get over it. GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Paraniod people!!

Well, what makes you think that she doesn't have the choice and chose to do what she did? Just because it is unthinkable to you does not mean it is to her. Maybe she doesn't like swimming, maybe she just looked bored on that day. You just assume that since she is wearing a hijab, she must have been forced into it, when the truth is many women choose it.

Well so can i say what is this why she can not go to temple in bikini,this is not freedom,but i know that everything has got certain points and thats ur religion,and itz all upto those who follow them,but u r imposing ur view on our religion although Muslim women is pretty happy,u can say she is proud of this identity,in a very crowdy place Muslim women can be easily noticed that here is the Muslim women.Try to respect others religion,as i also respect christianity .We muslims dunt pointout any thing from ur religion.and if u say that BMW can market there value by a women in bikini,than my dear brother what is the point,BMW does not contain AC that a driver needs to be semi naked to drive a car,or it is so expenisive that owner will loose even his clothes.But they are using women to sell there car.And the right word is Masjid not mosque.

why don't YOU try and respect my view point and stop judging me, and then we'll get along just fine!

Perhaps Muslim people feel judged by you? You are insistent upon claiming this woman that you don't know was forced to wear her Hijab and wasn't allowed to swim. Maybe she didn't want to swim. Maybe she didn't know how to swim. Your article has an undertone of judgment, but you exclamation point, chastise someone else for not respecting your point of view? Being forced to wear Hijab is wrong. Assuming every Muslim woman you see wearing Hijab is forced into it is also wrong. I think you presume a lot about the religion itself. I don't think you like the religion. But honestly it's not the religion you dislike. It is the way some people choose to practice it. Many slave owners used Christianity to prove the inferiority of their African slaves and could point to verses of the bible to justify why they should have slaves. It does not mean Christianity is bad. It means, some people are bad. I hope we can all respect and understand each other more. And please, do not feel attacked. We are not trying to judge you.

Thank you for this very nice comment, which particularly points out the undertone that is very patornising and annoying. I'm not religious, would hardly call myself a muslim, but patronising judementalism by the largely ignorant is something that provokes a reaction from me; no matter what side of the aisle it comes from.

Well if I offer u the same thing,what will be ur answer,as i m with the Order of the Allah,who says in Quran to do Hijab to men and women both.

so then follow it and all the other men and cover up just as a woman does in public.

And secondly who said men has not to do nothing only women has to obey ALLAHs words,men has to also grow beard wear a cap and keep his clothes over his ankles.And i am 23 and by the grace of ALLAH i follow these commands of ALLAH and i am very happy after not shaving and growing my sweet beard,although i love my beard,if some one offer me 100 million dollar or the most beautifull women in this world for the cost of my beard,i will reject that with not any second thought.As the picture christians portray of Jesus Christ,that also shows He has the beard.

that's fine. but, certainly the man wasn't following that day and many others days I can recall. the husband didn't have a beard and he surely wasn't covered to his ankles.

My friend, for a 100 million dollars and the most beautiful woman in the world I'd make you shave your beard.

Well changez its your view but my preference is to choose the beard on the cost of these worldly things.And HEATHEREDEN i m saying u have to wear clothes above ankle(the hijab of men is already discussed),not below ankle and secondly if that person is not growing his beard than its his choice although it is not a good one,and that women is doing HIJAB its her choice,she is a pious women,if that person forces her wife than in Foreign countries the law is very strong she can go to police and charge her husband with certain punishment,and if that person forces his wife than as u have mention his child was not covered,than why he has not forced her child although child will not retaliate like an adult.These few facts i think make you believe that,Muslim lady was wearing Hijab with her own wish,my dear in this world there is no device which can trap persons intentions.

Take a joke, ak. That's the problem with religious people no sense of humour. You can pass the money and woman on to me then; or just the money.

and I'm not religious. just the opposite.

on this subject there really isn't any humor to be found except the articles about the Taliban being killed by anonymous killers.

ok my friend Changez,dont worry i will pass the money to u,and u just buy me few small things,A BMW ,A banglow in Islamabad,and a small showroom of Imported cars ;).Aray yaar I am also like You.

"You are confusing culture with religion"

so muslims follow culture and not islam?

so again i ask............muslims follow culture not islam?

Ummm...Islam is a religion that is practised by people of different CULTURES, around the world. Like there are American muslims, and Chinese muslims, etc. Get a grip.

i have a grip....i just hate hypocrites....i am just trying to get someone to answer me...if all these things are not islam then muslinm do not follow the islam faith they follow culture....right?

I don't want money. I want change. I want the torture, the killings, the silence oppression and the inequality to stop. And I don't think I'm the only one.

Lecia,To answer your question, I think religion and cultural background is very often used as a guise to excuse patriarchal practices. I do not think it's the culture or the religion that is necessarily patriarchal. I think it's the people who are sexist and use other things to excuse or justify their behavior. I am Christian, and my boyfriends brother refuses to let his wife work and believes she should 'submit' to him. He says the bible says this and he is being a good Christian. I do not subscribe to that line of thinking. I think he's a mysogynist and would like to find a justification as to why he can act that way. I saw a youtube video the other day where a 'pastor' claims God hates and wants him to hate Barak Obama. He read different verses in the bible to make his point. I don't write off the religion because of how some people interpret it. Those people are jack-asses and I don't read more into it than that.

My point is, if she is a well educated, strong woman, and she agrees with her husband that she shouldn't work, then what are you going to tell her? That she's wrong? That she has the right to work? She could very well say she doesn't want to work because she doesn't think it's right. That is her personal morality. You have no right to define whether it is unacceptable or not, and if as a society people decide that women have to work, that heads down the path to totalitarianism. This is now becoming a waste of time because you are actually hurting the cause you say you want to help, of equality for women in Muslim countries, without having any idea how to go about it.

I understand your point of view changez. But, if a woman says she doesn't want to work in America, then the husband says, well, it might be a better I idea if you do work if you want the life style you desire. Some men provide that opportunity; some don't. It's the freedom I'm talking about- the freedom of choice- for every woman in every society. And I'm not sure if you're clear about the definition of totalitarianism, because Islam is somewhat of a totalitarianism society: " it is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible." PLEASE, WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking at the picture, I can guess the woman is probably Pakistani: her features and clothes indicate that. I don't know which part of the country she is from, but I would say she is middle class, and over here they're generally a bit conservative on the religious side. that means she probably doesn't like to swim in public, abstains from drinking, like her husband, and keeps the religious observances, like occasional (maybe regular) prayer, and fasting. She'd probably tell me my drinking is wrong, but then she probably loves her husband and kids and is quite happy with life, since she doesn't have to deal with power outages, terror attacks and rising prices here, but is in the states where things are easy and stable. The fact that I think all women should be allowed and able to walk around naked, just like all men, is besides the point. We don't live in Utopia, yet. That I think it's silly for her to cover her head doesn't give me the right to judge her situation while knowing nothing about it. I can make an educated guess, and maybe, heather, you'd like to ask her next time, or find out a bit, so that you can make an educated guess too.

Let me put it this way, the religion say's don't eat pork...it doesn't tell you how to cook the beef.The religion doesn't speak about men and women dressing a particular way, it just says people should dress modestly; what modesty is defined by people themselves, depending on where they live and that is a cultural perspective. It's different in Lebanon and different in Morocco or China. It's even different from one family to the next. That's in places where families actually have a history and have lived in the same place for hundreds of years. The fact is that till 150 years ago, these places were rich, sophisticated society's that were on the brink of decay after a couple of centuries of stagnation. They were colonised or broken up by the rising western european colonial powers, who then stripped them of resources and violently oppressed the people; the british colonisation of India is the best example of one of the richest and most sophisticated society's in the world reduced to nothing within 50 years of brutality. In the old societies, religion was the defining aspect of culture, in that it laid the base for cultural observance, so holidays were religious holidays, government was defined by religious interpretation, similar to pre-french revolution europe. The difference here is that these societies were then run by outside powers for 150 years, and the social fabric is still recovering from that. Often the culture was actively destroyed by the colonizing powers, and books, art work, the outward expressions of that culture, were destroyed or taken away. Often religious extremism is a reaction to the destructive influence of outside domination. Now, the majority of these countries are developing countries and have serious law and order, governance etc. problems, and women’s rights and issues are part of the package of rights that people are trying to deal with. That requires reinterpretation of the cultural history and religious ideology, as well as state laws government regulations. It requires education and activism. It also requires that people like you, outside the country, understand this and stop haranguing these cultures and countries about their backwardness, but rather help with their evolution. Perhaps in the process you will evolve as well. It is particularly jarring for people who know that 200 years ago theirs was the most wealthy and powerful culture or civilization on the planet to be told they are backwards, by the heirs of the very people who colonized them, a people their own ancestors thought were backwards. It is a vicious cycle. It would be like the Nazi’s winning ww2 and today telling the French they suck.

so the brutal subjugation of women and the barbaric acts against children are all the west fault? and since these acts are commited under "culutral traditions" it should be left alone and no voice should be raised against it?

YOUR ONLY NUMB TO THE CORRUPTION AND OPPRESSION!! That's a sad, sad thing. I don't need to interview the lady to understand she is not free. She lives in America, but still under orthadox laws. And if she really didn't feel comfortable swimming in public, then that's realistic. She's under the stress and order of law. Why put yourself through the hardship?

my answer to LECIA is that,please study the religion Islam it is very cool one,and dont judge the car through its drivers,i can never drive a truck it does not mean that truck is of low quality,it means that i am mis-using it,similarly dont judge Islam through its followers,and the best of followers were Holy Prophet(PBUH) and SAHABAs.Now Islam allows to follow the culture of any place untill it is not crossing the limits of Islam.Means a female can cover her body with a lite cloth if she is in some hot area,and if she is in Canada or some cold place so she has to wear the warm dresses of that region,simple.Now if you read these all comments you will understand the cultural difference in Religions also,No Muslim person has forced you to change your view although I admire your things,but You all people are just behind Islam,now very simply you reply will be its a discussion,so now I am leaving upto LECIA and HEATHERDEN that conclude this discussion.

wHAT IS UP WITH THIS SITE. ALL MY COMMENTS ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

You can judge the righteous by their fruits. Please, Islam, cool? Spare me. It's a crock! And it's a shame that it's spread so widely. Gabriel the archangel gave Mohammad the laws. Gabriel isn't the angel of highEST authority. And Mohammad is in the lineage of Ishmael who was born from Hagar- Abraham and Sarah's servant. The Quran isn't even in chronological order and they wouldn't change it in fear of it losing it's value. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE THE VALUE OF WHAT PEOPLE THINK IT HAS. IT'S ONLY FOR HISTORY PURPOSES, LIKE A BOOK TO READ OF MOHAMMAD'S REVELATIONS. THERE'S BOOKS PUBLISHED LIKE THAT EVERY DAY TODAY BY PEOPLE WHO CLAIM ANGELS SPEAK TO THEM! So, you want to drop a bomb on me?? It was founded in 570 AD after Christ died. It's a rebellious shamble. PERIOD. CAN PEOPLE GET A GRIP??

Seriously, let's weigh out the logic on this: follow a man who streamed from God the Father Himself, or Gabriel the Archangel....hmmmmmmmmmm,,,,hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,, I think the man who streamed from God the Father would be more accurate..just saying..

Then you go and believe that heather, belive in your own world that Islam is this horrible religion have a fun and "happy" life. Go on and believe that everyone should believe what you believe, and it's a good thing we all have the freedom to choose or else you would force us into what you believe.

OK and you go and be a Muslim Melissa and come back to me in the next life and let me know how it went! I'm not being ugly. I'm stating facts from history and weighing it out logically. Why do you think Obama converted to Christianity, when he grew up Muslim?

And let me know if you find your husband with 12 virgins in Heaven because he was a good and lawful boy.

Melissa, did you see the picture of the young man who was recently killed by a rocket grenade from the Taliban? That could of been your son, and would you then protect a religion that believes if you don't follow their laws, then prepare for death? You assume my life is happy, when it is just a struggle like the rest of us. Please, I have studied religion since I was a child- coming out of the womb questioning truth. I'm a truth seeker and that's it. And I will not stand up for something that's a crock of shit! And again, it's a shame that there are decent human beings that follow the Koran and look the other way while women are beheaded, children are being beaten the death, groups of citizens are being blown up and our military is being attacked by a radical sect of them. Actually, they are the core of the Koran. The core of the bible is love and community. Trust me, I've photographed them, Christian radials- their like sheltered, peaceful Pilgrims. The radicals of Islam will blow your f...... head off- with no remorse, because they actually believe it's from the "Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers." (The Cow 2:23) Get the Koran Melissa and study it yourself. Prepare yourself for those who want to twist your vision and mind with garbage.

Do you actually want to convert to a religion where your on your knees with your a.. is in the air, chanting with a million other fools worshiping a leader with no mercy and the penalty for the unbeliever is death- It's the Real Temple of Doom.

But, then again, you'll be behind your man facing his..."Lo! Let absolutely no woman lead a man in prayer!"

"No nation shall succeed that is led by a woman." "The best of the men's prayer-rows is the first and the worst the last, while the best of the women's prayer-rows is the last and the worst is the first." (so don't you dare be in the front!) "A woman does not lead as imam." "They concur one and all that a woman cannot lead men in prayer with their knowledge of her being a woman and, if they do, their prayer is invalid by consensus."

I suppose Queen Elizabeth defied that first quote.

Muslim Melissa!!!!!!!!!! haha! Here you go assuming again. You have a real problem with being judgmental and I promise this is the last time I am posting anything because this has gotten to a point where you have made me sick and a complete loss for words. I actually don't believe in any organized religion but I don't go around boasting what I believe. I was raised Catholic and now I believe my own thing that I don't have to justify on defend to anyone. No one should insult people that you have done. Obama had his own reason why he's a Christian. I'm not going to judge him or assume anything. Religion and faith is someones personal choice and is very sacred. I don't have to read into every bible or Koran to know what I believe in. Also, just because you called me "muslim melissa" it does not insult ME what so ever!

I didn't call you Muslim, if you know how to read properly. I said, go ahead and convert if you want to, because you are protecting Islam. And I'm sorry if the truth has caused you nausea. It sometimes does. You are being thrown to the wind, to and fro right now, and it's ok if you don't actually know what you believe. Life is very complex and it can be better for the mind to take the existential approach. Good Luck! So, next time when you want to jump in and judge some one like me who knows what they believe, think and then add what you honestly can from your original point of view, instead of all the judgments.

Oh sure, he converted to 'look the part' as an American President. Remember what you said: Religion is sacred. You either convert for two reasons: the beliefs make more sense and it's an inner conviction that leads you, or for exterior purposes.

First of all,Obama converts to christianity but MJs brother turns to Muslim,Yousuf Youhana famous cricketer turn to Muslim,Boxer Mohammad ALI,and the list goes on and on.Secondly Taliban is no religious party,it is made by USA to fight against Russia,and you can not see the children of Sudan, Somalia, Kashmir, Palestine, Bosnia.But i dont act like u and start using abusive language agianst christianity or Jews(although they are for sure wrong)."And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or thelike thereof, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful."(The Cow 2:23)The reference you have given is of this Surah,and secondly every AYAT have a context behind it,please mention that also,first study that from some scholar of Islam.The language you are using shows that now you are frustrated now and you have got no place to run away.

You are right about the Taliban, however they are a sect of the Shiites, which we supplied weapons to during the Cold War to fight against Russia in Afghanistan. However, they started shooting at us later on so we became alias with the Sunnis instead. And we are still fighting the Taliban who are still some of the most brutal, hateful people in this world.

You're wrong about the Taliban aktabish, they have nothing to do with Russia. Where are your references? And just as you say Jews and Christians are wrong- I say your religion is wrong. So, who wins? Watch the movie: Body of Lies.

Changez,

You are very smart and I think we can all learn a lot from you. I thought this was a very eloquent and accurate analysis. I think you have been very patient and understanding in trying to explain this to us all. You are the portrait of a gentleman. I'd like to add a tidbit to this:

Nations are always evolving and changing for the better. America was founded on Slave labor and indentured servitude. Many of the people in the colonies were overflows from England Prisons. We are not a perfect country by far, but we have had a history of our own brand of oppresion in America. Perhaps we should acknowledge that. Acknowledge that we have a ways to go, as do other nations.

Let he (and she) who is without sin, cast the first stone".John 8:7

Heatherden, all these quotes are from the bible:"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24)A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner"(I Timothy 2:11-14)."The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)"If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her saying, 'I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' …and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25)."Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God…A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

Again, I don't know a Christian who follows the old scriptures.

And they need to edit the bible and the Koran if it's going to faithfully direct human law of life.

I know. The Bible and the Koran say awful things about women. The modern believers disregard those old verses.

Heatherden,The Core of the bible is love and community? I think you can find mysogony in almost all organized religion. It's how you choose to practice your religion that makes the difference. I disagree with your depiction of Christian fundamentalists. I read an article the other day about a Christian fundamentalist who murdered an abortion doctor. Your statements reek of self righteous, intolerant, judgemental, bigotry, perpetrated by your hate and contempt for what you refuse to understand. How many times do we have to say it? Religions are tainted by people who pick and choose verses from the Bible, Quran, etc like it's a Chinese food menu to justify their point. In that respect your picking and choosing is no different. What makes you any different than the religious fundamentalists out there? You use your religion as a weapon to degrade anyone who disagrees with you. You don't want to understand or listen to anyone elses points. This isn't an intellectual discourse. You crossed the line and disgrace people who are Muslim and disgrace Christianity in the process. You are full of hate and I will pray for you.

Dear chexmix,Did I ever say I was behind one religion in particular? No. Never did I. I am not religious. And it's a shame that the Christian person killed an abortion doctor. They were obviously sick, full of hate and illusions. Someone like that is full of hate chexmix. I'm a person full of passion for everyone to reach the freedom of choice. I think you are full of judgment for me right now because I spoke out my opinions about the lady at the pool and my take on Islam. I don't like any religion really, their all culturally, socially and economically bias. However, the one law that Jesus said to follow in the New Testament was to love one another as God has loved you. Pretty simple huh? Yes, indeed, but even Christians get tangled up in a religious web of lies. The Christians get deceived, The Buddhist get greedy, The Hindus get fearful and disillusioned, The Muslims get Judgmental... Somethings always wrong with every religion. That's why I am a person who fights for human rights- not as a zealous religious idiot, but as a human with the right to live free and peaceful with other humans on this planet. Thanks for your support though.

In Texas, women can choose what they want to wear, worship, and marry. What do you say to a doctor wearing Islamic dress--a woman who sends her children to Islamic schools? They have a choice. The Muslim woman I know around here swims in her home's expensive swimming pool. The entire families graduated from medical school. So they have a choice, at least financially. They seem happy swimming in their home pool with fences all around. Sometimes you wonder. But if you want to marry someone with other choices, gals, the Unitarian church gives you a wide choice of lifestyles because we believe in deeds (good deeds) not creeds. My faith is live and let live. Meanwhile, I don't even own a bathing suit at seventyish.

I like your motto.

i can see by the exceptional amout of response here that this is rather upsetting. and i agree it is. it bothers me a great deal to see this. please allow me to qualify myself for commenting here. i am a veteran, ive been to a healthy portion of the middle east and similar regions. i dont like any of this behavior, its sickening, however you must remember, a lot of what you all say here comdemns these things. have you ever been to their world? you re commenting on a society that might as well be from another world. you are trying to apply your way of thinking and life that you grew up with and are proud of to those that grew up with thier own way of life that yes.... is very alien to our own. many of them do hate it, with a passion, however, for some sick reasoning they live that life proudly. i dont understand this either, i percieve it as being horriffically unjust. but your need to condemn them for their way of life is a vast part of why so many hate the great white devils from the u.s. if we must go to their part of the world to wage war and to try to help, fine, then we must. but we should also try to consider that we dont give a single second thought to how arrogant and pushy we must seem to them when we push our understanding of right and wrong down thier throats. if they wish to accept our version of right and wrong over their own, fine. if they dont, then perhaps you should try supporting them and being the kind of friend they most likely need.

I would love to be friends, the ones that are open minded enough to befriend me without betrayal.

This argument is like fight between two seven years old's for ice cream. Basically Heather doesn't like Islam as a religion, which she is perfectly entitled to do, but she also has this bad habit of attributing things to others that she can;t be sure of at all. Lecia, meanwhile believes all the propaganda Jerry Falwell spews out.Heather, please, next time, just ask the lady why she isn't swimming, and maybe you'll learn something.

Changez you have a funny point, but just because I didn't ask the lady why she wasn't swimming doesn't justify the oppression and bitterness the world feels about Islam. I may have been somewhat poking or calling out this women just for a rise, because of my feelings on the subject that just have never been able to be released. So, say what you will. At least the subject has been debated and brought up to discuss by intelligent people.

Heatherden,I agree. The bible and Koran say awful things about women. Personally, I think it is the influence of patriarchal men and societies throughout history that has had it's influence on "rewriting" these scriptures to justify their treatment of women throughout history. I think you can also find verses about loving your enemies and doing good. Most organized religion (Scientology cult, not included) is about generosity and love, and living your life with respect and compassion for others. But everyone interprets the way they see it and pick and choose what they want to follow and not. I live in California where the majority of Californian's voted for denying homosexuals basic civil rights. Many people who called themselves Christians told me homosexuality was an abomination and not in line with God's law, as they engaged in premarital sex and drunken debauchery on the weekends. I think the problem is with humankind. If there is a God, I hardly believe he/she believes in heirarchy's and double standards.

I am not trying to judge you. I am only human. I think you have passed judgement too, and I have made some false assumptions about your faith. I read the things you said to Melissa about the Taliban, etc. and your defense of Christian fundamentalists and it made me angry. I agree with your other post about freedom of choice. But whether you understand it or not, you have to respect that some women choose to wear Hijab. I took a middle eastern studies class in college and I consider myself a feminist. It was hard to listen to Muslim women who talked about their choice to wear the Hijab. I didn't understand it and I thought they must be brainwashed by their patriarchal society and religion, but hearing someone say, "Hijab offers me freedom from patriarchy because when I wear it, I'm not judged on my appearance or looked at as a sex object. When someone talks to me, they get to know me for who I am." ...Well let's just say that changed my perspective. I'm not trying to get you to believe as I do, but simply to allow yourself to see the other side. I do this because I do respect you, think you are an intelligent human being, and are a fellow feminist as I am. This has always been a very touchy subject for us feminists to navigate. So after a lot of reflection on how I do feel about Hijab, I have come to the conclusion that because of my indentity and background I won't understand it the way someone who has grown up in that culture will. I have a biased approach to it because I look at it through the lense of an American culture. I think Parker makes a good point about this. I disagree with someone being forced and governments who force women to wear Hijab and participate in honor killings, etc. But, I respect peoples personal choice to be a part of that faith and women to willingly wear Hijab.

I agree with you about wearing the Hijab as a personal preference. That is the freedom you are blessed with. But, yes I was referring mainly to the women who do not have that freedom you and I have. Thanks for your thoughts. I took a class in college on Western religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism. I spend a day with a unorthodoxy Muslim family. It was interesting. It's think it's time for the modern editors addition of the Bible and Koran- to remove all the bigotry and cruel verses that led people into war and oppression.

Reading on the comments, it is one indicator that religion is really one of the sensitive topic to discuss.