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Religious vs. Secular Arguments

Abu Dhabi : United Arab Emirates | 5 months ago  
Views: 3,443

I can't believe yet another person un-friended me on FB because they were offended by my posts. I think I know what's driving people to react this way. An old friend from high school explained it to me. I'm losing people because I'm using religious arguments instead of secular arguments in order to make my point. I need to use facts and reason instead of relying on theological propositions. He is absolutely right. You can't bring faith into a debate. If you do, you will lose a big chunk of the people that you're trying to influence.

But I'm not sure all my arguments were based in religion when I was discussing France's proposed burqa ban in an earlier post. I was trying to use the secular argument that a society ought to embrace diversity. I live in Toronto. When I was attending university, I remember taking a sociology course in my second year, and my prof. Robert Bryme (can't believe I remember his name after 7 years) mentioned that Toronto was the most multicultural city in the world.

I believe that a society has strength in diversity, and people wherever they live should be proud of their cultural heritage. If an Orthodox Jewish New Yorker wants to wear a yarmulke, he should be allowed to do so. I think that telling North African women in France that they should dress less Middle Eastern is kind of like telling a German woman in Egypt to dress less European.

I agree that every society has the right to make whatever rules it wants pertaining to what kinds of outfits are/aren't socially acceptable. Even France. But the timing for this is all wrong in my opinion. It's been only 5 years since they banned the hijab. And that was seen as a really unfair move by Muslims inside France and even Muslims outside of France. And although it wasn't just the hijab that they banned (the ban included all religious head gear), it was still seen as forced social conditioning directed primarily at Muslims.

France is proud of its secularism. I get that. Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, right? But isn't there a difference between secularism and blind secularism? The moment the government starts interfering in people's personal lives (and what one wears is extremely personal), I think that this can potentially harm social cohesion in a society. But I'm willing to compromise.

If Canada were to pass a law that banned Sikhs from wearing turbans or a law that banned Muslims from growing beards, I would question the need for such legislation. But if wearing a turban or growing a beard is causing a problem in specific instances (e.g. being a cop or a fireman), then I would accept a law that bans a turban/beard in those specific instances/occupations.

In the same way, if a burqa is causing a problem in a specific situation (e.g. identifying a person), then a ban is acceptable in that specific situation. But a blanket ban on burqas is like basically saying, "Western civilization is superior to "Ay-rab" civilization." And that's really unfair. There are bounds of reason. If students have a hard time communicating with their burqa-clad teacher, then I would accept a ban on burqas for teachers. I would even accept a law that made it mandatory for a burqa-wearing woman to reveal her face when getting her photo taken for her driver's license.

Heck, I would even accept a law that mandated stricter penalties for husbands/fathers who are found to be forcing their daughters/wives to wear burqas against their will. In order to come up with a policy that is fair and just, the French government (or any government for that matter) really should consult with religious/community leaders who can help them design a policy that takes into account France's secularism as well as respect for Muslim/Arab/Berber cultural/religious sensitivities/traditions.

I'm using completely secular arguments here. For Sarkozy to say that the burqa is a symbol of subservience/oppression/slavery, this is an opinion, not a fact. So if I'm using facts, then Sarkozy should reciprocate by also using facts, and not opinions. I have a certain bias, and so does Sarkozy. But if we can put our biases aside, I think that my argument is a little bit more reasonable than his, a little bit fairer than his, a little bit more just than his, and a little bit more sensible than his.

When I talk about Israel/Palestine, I agree with those that say it's a secular conflict, not a religious one. Nobody is trying to convert anybody; they're fighting over land and rights. But the reason that I'm reluctant to call it an Arab vs. Israeli conflict is that it marginalizes non-Arab Muslims who have a stake in who controls Islam's third holiest site. I wouldn't call it a Muslim vs. Jewish conflict because that would negate the fact that there are Arab Christians/Druze and even a couple of Israeli Jews on the same side as Arab Muslims.

But calling the conflict solely an Arab issue is kind of demeaning to Muslims in Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, etc. since we believe that it's kind of important that we be allowed to worship at the Al Aqsa Mosque some day (if not in our lifetimes, then at least in our grandchildren's lifetimes). As things stand now, Israel does not allow freedom of worship for Palestinian males above a certain age. I'm not trying to use a religious argument. This is a totally secular argument: freedom of worship. If my Friend List continues to shrink, then I'm totally out of ideas.

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News Stories
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  • News Source: The Guardian | 5 months ago
    row over Islamic dress opens bitter divisions in France • Moves to ban Muslim face coverings gather force • Human rights groups warn of growing discrimination In the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis, with its busy market, fast-food joints...
  • News Source: Toronto Star | 5 months ago
    I've never met a female who willingly wore the damn thing, though nearly all who do would never consider going about otherwise. That is because they've been culturally lobotomized, raised to feel such shame about their own physical presence they are...
Blogs
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  • Blog Source: frustratedlebanese.blogspot.com
    But I'm not sure all my arguments were based in religion when I was discussing France's proposed burqa ban in an earlier post. I was trying to use the secular argument that a society ought to embrace diversity. I live in Toronto. ... If Canada were
  • Blog Source: www.twocircles.net
    Sarkozy in a speech to lawmakers Monday said the burqa -- the head-to-toe garment worn by some Muslim women that conceals their faces -- was not in accordance with the French values and that instead of a sign of religion its a sign of ...
  • Blog Source: ramanujanwrites.blogspot.com
    ... defeat of “communalism” in the country's 2009 verdict, here comes a nation, known for its strictly secular polity, not the one that we practice here in India, which says that “burka” is not a sign of religion, but a sign of subservience .
  • Blog Source: fluttering-wings.blogspot.com
    Underlying argument is that many women wear burqas by choice and not by force. So a ban is denying them of choice not only of clothes but also of religious freedom. Would you then force the nuns to wear jeans? Of course not. ... Secular nature of
  • Blog Source: worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com
    The burqa is a far more repressive statement than a cross but to be fair, just ban the lot in all secular countries. Australia has enough problems with imported belief sysems than christianity and to see women enclosed in such archaic ..... As far
  • Blog Source: blogs.reuters.com
    By declaring war on the all-enveloping full-length veil worn by only a tiny minority of Muslim women in France, Sarkozy ensured that his secularist assault on religious fundamentalism would grab the headlines, and dominate .... i can see both
Videos
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Posted By ahol888 ahol888 | 4 months ago
France and every other country in the world should ban the burqa because that is degrading to women. The Koran is full of statements in which women are brainwashed to be subservient to the man in all facets of life. The burqa is primarily worn in areas where radical Islam thrives. However, over the past week, the clerics could not even hold an election without everyone knowing that it was rigged. Islam has proved over 1,200 years that it has been ineffective since the Battle of Tours was lost in 732. The problem is not whether or not someone should be allowed to wear a burqa; the problem is figuring out why so many people follow Islam, the most ineffective religion ever created.
Reply By nadeem_arian nadeem_arian | 4 months ago
Mr. Ahol888! This is not your choice to think this way, the problem is that you have learnt only to curse others. I am not a psychiaterist, but can figure out, may be your surroundings, your society has made you to adopt such a biased way of thinking. I don't know if you live on the same planet or what. The statistics show that Islam is the most effective religion at least on this planet. According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%. In a recent poll in the (US), 100,000 people per year in America alone, are converting to Islam. For every 1 male convert to Islam, 4 females convert to Islam, Why? It is because they find something for them, security, respect, rights, or whatever they come looking for. Go through the teachings of Islam with a liberal approach, putting aside the cursing expertise you have developed, rest assured that your point of view will change. In Islam even a dwarf like you has an equal standing in society. They become a respectable part of community not a cursing machine. Please rise above your 47 inches and be reasonable. This is absolutely not a way to comment on somebody's beliefs on such a forum. One has to have respect for humanity before commenting on the beliefs of other fellows. No one coverts without a brainstorming or a profound study of whatever religion he or she is converting to. Try to think like them, try to find out the truth for yourself and make an independent decision for yourself.
Posted By lakkannaqvi lakkannaqvi | 4 months ago
Keep it up. I do not know what you do for a living. You have presented your case like a good lawyer. It is said that a good lawyer should hammer the law if he is strang on law; hammer the facts if he is strang on facts; and hammer the table if he is strong on none. You have indeed used secular arguments very efficiently to put across your point of view.

And by the way, I agree completely with your line of argument.
Reply By swinginjazzz swinginjazzz | 4 months ago
Thanks you, Sir.
Posted By nadeem_arian nadeem_arian | 4 months ago
Swinginjazz! I do agree with you my friend! You have put the matter very logically and with a very down to earth approach.
Reply By swinginjazzz swinginjazzz | 4 months ago
Thanks for the kind words.
Posted By Chihuahua Chihuahua | 4 months ago
A burqa is designed to obscure identity. A man loaded with explosives could very well be hiding under one. Would you feel the same way about a group of people who insisted on wearing ski masks in venues other than windy ski slopes in the dead of winter? Most people would react very strongly to a person entering a store or a bank wearing a ski mask or even a rubber mask of some prominent character.
Reply By swinginjazzz swinginjazzz | 4 months ago
The Germans in the 1930's may have reacted strongly to seeing an Orthodox Jewish man wearing a yarmulke. This does not make it right to discriminate against Jews in Germany.
Posted By Chihuahua Chihuahua | 4 months ago
A yarmulke doesn't obscure identity. Neither does a turban or a beard. I like to see whom I speak with except at a costume ball, of course.
Reply By swinginjazzz swinginjazzz | 4 months ago
Like I said in the article, if it's a situation that makes it necessary for you to have to view the lady's face the she should reveal her face. But aside from that, I think that ideally a multicultural society should value and respect cultural diversity.
Reply By swinginjazzz swinginjazzz | 4 months ago
Like I said in the article, if it's a situation that makes it necessary for you to have to view the lady's face the she should reveal her face. But aside from that, I think that ideally a multicultural society should value and respect cultural diversity.
Posted By Chihuahua Chihuahua | 4 months ago
Unfortunately, we live in a much scarier world than we did 50 years ago. For example, I wouldn't have any objection to the head scarves that muslim women wear, nor do I have any objections to the robes that some monks wear, the saris that Indian women wear, turbans or beards. I'll bet, however, even your adrenaline would spike if you were standing in bank and a couple of men came in wearing ski masks. On the other hand, Sikh military personnel want permission to wear their turbans and beards even though both are prohibited by military regulations. Is this a violation of their rights? When a person enters the military, s/he knows uniforms are required. The word "uniform" implies sameness. My aged mother used to say "Your freedom ends where the other fellow's begins." She embraced diversity, as do I. Another unfortunate aspect of today's world is that sometimes when we wait to determine whether we "need" to see another person's identity, s/he has already blown up a restaurant. Of course, most of those suicide bombers didn't obscure their faces. I would be equally wary of a person wearing a bulky sweatshirt or jacket in very warm weather. The worst part of our terrorist ridden society is the fear they have instilled in people who actually DO embrace diversity. The behavior of some Americans after 9/11 was abominable. They were incredibly cruel to anyone looking even vaguely middle-eastern. There were also Americans who stepped up and protected their immigrant friends and neighbors. This is why I'm not in politics; I would find decisions such as Chirac's very hard to make and would end up a ditherer.
Posted By Chihuahua Chihuahua | 4 months ago
Unfortunately, we live in a much scarier world than we did 50 years ago. For example, I wouldn't have any objection to the head scarves that muslim women wear, nor do I have any objections to the robes that some monks wear, the saris that Indian women wear, turbans or beards. I'll bet, however, even your adrenaline would spike if you were standing in bank and a couple of men came in wearing ski masks. On the other hand, Sikh military personnel want permission to wear their turbans and beards even though both are prohibited by military regulations. Is this a violation of their rights? When a person enters the military, s/he knows uniforms are required. The word "uniform" implies sameness. My aged mother used to say "Your freedom ends where the other fellow's begins." She embraced diversity, as do I. Another unfortunate aspect of today's world is that sometimes when we wait to determine whether we "need" to see another person's identity, s/he has already blown up a restaurant. Of course, most of those suicide bombers didn't obscure their faces. I would be equally wary of a person wearing a bulky sweatshirt or jacket in very warm weather. The worst part of our terrorist ridden society is the fear they have instilled in people who actually DO embrace diversity. The behavior of some Americans after 9/11 was abominable. They were incredibly cruel to anyone looking even vaguely middle-eastern. There were also Americans who stepped up and protected their immigrant friends and neighbors. This is why I'm not in politics; I would find decisions such as Chirac's very hard to make and would end up a ditherer.
Reported by swinginjazzz

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