Are You Americans Just Apathetic, Ignorant or Both?

MsMystro - "Aside from our collective protection (i.e. our military/police) name a program that our government has been in complete control of AND was a SUCCESS."

The answer is NOT ONE! - and some would argue the collective protection hasn't fared that well either.

Gee, you couldn't possibly be referring to our extremely secure boarders could you?

Excellent point!

Am I the only one who thinks Obama having a personal website and the logo is creepy?

I disagree with your fundamental premise. The government isn't "taking over" private businesses at all, it is going into joint venture partnerships with them, and marginalizing the U.S. citizens in general for their "corporate" welfare.

A little different. This is consensual "take-overs" in order to facilitate a "global economy" and protection of the corporate above the rights of U.S. citizens and small businesses. This is USA, Inc., and the Fortune 500 painting "free markets" which are not "free" at all due to their memberships in various unconstitutuional "associations," of large industries which are monpolizing the market now worldwide.

So your entire premise is off. This is consensual. Those banks and the auto makers got a "privilege" and immunity by not having to go through the formal bankruptcy process, and then getting "bailed out" by the taxpayers - and Mr. Obama is actually acting as a CEO for USA,Inc. at this point.

Remember the Boston Tea Party. Protesting the merger of the sovereign with a global industry was actually the primary reason for that tea dumping - not strictly the tax on that tea, but the global monopoly that tea represented.

So the facts here are a little off.

Ross1776, Wow, for once I agree on all your points! I thank you for jumping into this discussion and representing these valid viewpoints. Here at Allvoices, we don't always agree with each other, but reading your well thought out comments and those of many other Allvoices users indicates we should keep our ears and minds opened to each other and embrace our differences, shed the egos and political baggage, and work more collaboratively to build better communities, better countries, and a better world.
- jongleur

I see your points. Perhaps I wasn't clear on some of mine but also missed the mark on some as well. I will admit your comments have given me definite food for thought. I like to research this stuff and learn more about it, so I appreciate the thoroughness of your comments. I don't remember voting for a CEO! And I missed that in the Constitution! I do need to ask, however, how would you tell this family that the government did not take over their private company? http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=107772947194&h=sl7Nv&u=RbzF9...

But this isn't for you, since the manner you respond and ask your questions leads me to believe you are most likely one of those who post on websites such as these as part of the overall agenda.

This really is for any of those that are aware that the two "parties" have merged, and also are aware of the history of the progression and are aware that most of these "global" sites are U.S. government grant funded in some way or another to facilitate the agenda using their "agents" on them to use the old "smoke and mirrors" technique.

And since it appears you also went to law school, then you also know what that is, if the bio is on the up and up since it appears with such accomplishments and three kids with such an extensive resume, you obviously clearly understand what I've stated, and as far as what you can do? I'm sure you also know the answer to that.

Ross1776, I AM NOT A LAWYER. I clean people's apartment's when they move out and pick up garbage on the property where we live.

When I was little I wanted to be a cop, then a conductor, then in college (while working on my music degree) I was getting more politically active and also getting upset about what was happening to Christians (and our Judeo-Christian heritage) in America today and looked into law school. But it was because of groups like the ACLJ (American Center for Law and Justice) not, any other kind of law. I didn't even make it through a prep class and never even applied for law school. I get too personally involved and can't handle the stress. In high school and maybe early college I fed off that kind of stress and pressure but not anymore.

I'm sure you all wanted a brief view of my personal history. But again, I do find it both kind of funny and flattering that you would think I have that level of training.

Now, Ross1776. The question is, are you an agent of the government posing as a "citizen" on these sites?

Well, I misstated one thing. With the degree of corruption now in our government at all levels, especially in the judiciary now as demonostrated by our "illegal" Supreme Court and its rulings as of late and actually since they unlawfully rewrote a new person into it after the Civil War, "corporate person-hood" that was NEVER meant to be given any rights at all but regulated, the federal judge would have towed the governmental line in favoring the "corporate" over the individual shareholders also most likely, in order to continue the campaign donations for THEIR benefactors, the legislators who determine their salaries along with their own.

But as a public corporation, all the illegalities would have been a matter of public record, and as such, those private investors would not have had to settle with the government on its terms, but could have sued GM and then ALL their financial holdings would have been a matter for public scrutiny and the press and other consumer watchdog agencies would have been able to publicly expose this contrived bankruptcy for what it was and is, and the muscle moves on the part of the UAW and GM in order to squeeze out both the minor shareholders, and also the profitable dealerships they now want to control for their corporate gain.

And now Congress and Obama want to use this corporate giant for their own political reasons with China and Mexico, their most profitable plants as one of those "outsourced" and now "global" corporations that Americans are now subsidizing, but foreigners are ultimately going to get most of the benefits.

We are attempting World Government here, and each step is part of the master plan, and this and the bank bailouts were two major moves.

GM isn't "bankrupt," whatsoever. And neither were the banks.

I never meant to imply they were. Only that our government was taking over an area they didn't belong.

This is exactly what I am stating. The small businesses are being squeezed out due to this joint venture of USA, Inc. and GM. There is much spin being done by both Washington and the top brass at GM in order to cover their tracks. That is why a formal bankruptcy wasn't filed. Because such information would have been required to be disclosed, since this IS, after all, a public corporation and as such all information on a corporate bankruptcy would have been legally required to be a matter of public record.

Most likely what is happening is that most of the actual profitable dealerships are being tyrannized in order to give up their "rights" and "property," so that USA Inc. and GM can simply own these dealerships outright.

You are missing the big picture here. This is collusion between the government and a major Fortune 500 company, that actually most likely is not bankrupt at all. Their Mexico and China plants are humming right along and are profitable due to the communist and socialist governments, and lack of unions involved. They wanted to get rid of those union contracts that were cutting into their profit margins, and also those individual shareholders who would have been given better protection by the bankruptc court, rather than UAW "corporate."

This is the UAW, Obama and GM "nationalizing" these car dealerships for their own "corporate" gain and eventual profit for outright ownership. And a way in which GM can renegotiate their union contracts at more favorable terms with new hires most likely brought in that will be satisfied with lower wages - the Mexicans and Chinese that are the agenda now with the upcoming amnesty and stories now about the "poor illegal" immigrants working in these plants for low wages. The UAW needs to increase their membeship, and new members bring in more in the way of those pensions they control, not the older American workers that are getting ready to collect. They need new blood to fund even those reduced pensions, since much of those pension monies are tied up in nonliquid assets.

They are socializing and cutting loose the profitable dealerships, not unprofitable ones. And that is the media spin factor, and governmental line but not the truth. And obviously why no formal bankruptcy procedure was undertaken.

And Napolitano is right on the one issue about the warranties, since those are contract obligations with the dealers and really the government and GM bound to honor them and a U.S. bankruptcy judge most likely would so find. But that again was why this was removed from the formal process. Because Congress and Obama are attempting to skirt around the Constitution with respect to obligatons under "consensual" contracts. GM offered those terms in order to sell their dealerships, and now wants to break those agreements for added profit,and Government Motors wants to facilitate its globalism policies and hand those jobs and dealerships over to whomever is more politically beneficial.

So the Constitution be damned.

You wonder, can anything be done about this? Can't we stop this from continuing? The Constitution IS STILL THE CONSTITUTION IS IT NOT?! I digress, I also completely agree with what you said, but how am I missing the big picture? And I ask that not in an argumentative way but to understand where I may be wrong or misunderstood since I clearly agree with you.

Ross..Bravo..there is much validity to what you address above!

Can I ask for specifics?

MMM..NASA managed to send a few people to the moon on an ambitious
program in the 60's. Some would consider that a success!

slydog, So NASA sent a few people to the moon. I was there in the 60's and saw the whole extravaganza on TV. Big Deal--if it even happened. Those billions and billions of $$$ NASA sucked up during the Mercury/Apollo/Shuttle/etc. programs could have been used to protect the environment, improve education, reduce hunger and poverty, pursue clean energies, provide jobs and better health care, et al., rather than littering space with tons and tons of toxic space junk and stealing the future of our children's children so a few guys and girls could float around and play in zero gravity. - jongleur

I was only answering the question: Name a Gov Program that was
successful..I wasn't defending the scope,intention nor use of the
funds for better programs!

slydog, I know! We're cool! I guess I have never seen the value of the U.S. space program, spending $$$ on spacey goals while millions of homeless, hungry, and uninsured folks suffer here on earth.
- jongleur

I heard that to beat the Bugger-Russians in the speed-game of who-gets-to-the-moon first they filmed it in the backyard of White House! Jeez mate, I reckon crikey Kennedy had 'superiority issues unmet' in his childhood! Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUOItuKm5UE

There are specific functions of government that are specified in the Constitution, one of which is the printing and regulation of our currency. The basic problem is that Washington and the local state governments have now privatized what they had no business privatizing, and are using the monies now for governmental functions in order to go into partnershps with big business at the cost of the sole proprietors and small businesses. "Corportizing" American, as it were, under "global socialism," of product development and marketing.

So as I said, you are little off. This is consensual private business merging with USA, Inc., and the government not performing their functions in protecting the weaker (citizens, small businesses) from the stronger. We are not a democracy. We are a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic, and there are specified functions.

They've now even privatized our prisons, for heaven sake, and now charging tax paying citizens for their own incarcerations, so that they can give money to private developers for these joint ventures, or taking the property and land from 3rd and 4th generation Americans to give to the foreigners entering this country en mass who are taking the jobs and livelihoods of naturalized and natural born Americans.

I think you might need to read your U.S. history once again. The founders were "protectionists" and did not at all wish to merge our economy with that of other nations in order to protect American lives and property from foreign intervention.

And we are now 180 degrees from that premise.

Ross you bring up a good point on the prisons - A long time ago - ok, not long - a dictator with the first name "Saddam" charged people for their incarcerations and when the Humanitarian organizations came down on him for human injustices, his hit squad (aka - his sons and their posse) went directly to the families of those incarcerated folks (even if innocent) - those who could not pay - had their relatives shot and dumped in mass graves. Yes - We should have left him alone.

Ross1776, are we agreeing or disagreeing (overall)...I have had a long day so perhaps I am missing something but if you could help me here that would be great!

I ask because at first glance I couldn't agree more on your last comment...your first one requires much more brain power so I need more time...I told you, I had a long day (3 kids)!!

Because they do post through using "ordinary citizen" posters. Obama is a prime example in his speeches to the AMA this week of the agendas of the attorney/politicians. Instead of addressing the reason medical costs are so high due to lids being removed on punitive damages for medical malpractice claims, and now most medicine "corporatized" and doctors now answerable to Boards of Directors due to Nixon's sovereign/corporate connections also as a lawyer - he is attempting to sell his national health care to the doctors informing them they will be better off. No, the lawyers will be better off. Now they will have both the government, and private carriers in order to tap as deep pockets for some of their frivolous harassment actions that have driven many doctors from the practice of medicine.

Are you sure you aren't a lawyer, or employed by one?

Yes. All cards on the table: considered law school, took the LSAT after college but realized I couldn't handle that kind of stress. I can be pretty sensitive. Now, do you believe me? Although, I will take that as a compliment to some extent. I must not sound like a complete moron. So for that, thank you. But PLEASE DON'T compare me to Obama again....really...please.

Are you sure you don't work for the government, or are being "counseled" by the legal "industry" in this country, the greatest welfare recipients of all of governmental welfare in their various associations, capacities, and lobbyists careers?

Yikes! Why do you ask? I honestly don't. But now I am really intrigued as to why you would wonder so much. I have my BA in Music (trained in Orchestral conducting, trumpet and minored in Business Administration). However, life happened and so did a family after I got married so I work PT from home so I can stay at home with my kids and I love it.

Does that help?

Slydog, my first thought was...good point! And I think it is, in part. However, as all government programs, they often may start out great (your example: NASA in the 60's was successful from what I know about it) but the overall success doesn't last and as an example turn into, pun intended, a financial black hole.

I am not sure I would agree they were "consensual takeovers" either. At least not all of them.

And most, like Slydog, seem unreasonably interested in U.S. issues over Canadian ones it appears, which truly is odd, unless it is somehow tied in to our political matters. And foreigners speaking propaganda, or what would be considered treason by our founders against our form of intended government and favoring "socialism" would be immuned from prosecution in this country for treason. So it is why much of the spin on these global websites are under either false U.S. logins, or actually spun by the "globalist foreigners," especially in Canada, that really are behind the "merger" of the North American countries in attempting to point out the similarities between Canada and the U.S., or how much better the U.S. would be if we were like Canada.

Which is still under a form of "monarchial" and "sovereign" government we actually fought a war to escape.

Your are so full of it I can smell it from across the border! Since when wasn't Canada an ally thru various wars, auto pacts, NATO..oh crap the list is endless? TREASON? Go back to Ruby Creek or McCarthy or McViegh worship or whatever jingoistic, narrow- minded stars & stripe rock you crawled out from under! It is people like you that give Americans a bad name & a worse smell in the world.Yankee Doodle dandy!

Spoken like a true socialist.

(I don't know why this is posting this up here- this is in response to Ross' comment below) Since WWII? WWII and those 'alliances' are what helped America merge as a world leader. Those alliances- in and of themselves- have not been compromising us since WWII by any means. It's the motivation behind the continued and/or (re)newed alliances that's causing the compromise in our stability. Telling the rest of the world to 'suck it' in so many words probably isn't going to help us brush ourselves off and 'mind our own agenda'.

Our founders believed "trade with all nations, alliances with none," and those alliances since World War II is what is compromising our national security, and economic survival. So I'll wave the stars and stripes, the flag that Betsy sewed, as a demonstration of "severing" ties with British influence and rule, thank you.

As an American, I happen to like Canada, among several other countries.

I do wonder, Slydog, what about your health care system you love so much?

That is a fascinating point.

Sure they were. Who do you think really OWNs the banks in this country? Every single one of them? The Federal Reserve. So, in other words, the Fed bailed out itself, and then charged it to the American people? Lehrman Brothers and Goldman Sachs are two of the five owners of the Federal Reserve for heaven's sake. And Congress got the monies for the bailouts from the Fed. What's wrong with this picture.

The Federal Reserve is owned by five major U.S. and European banking institutions, who in turn own all the major banks in this country, with the exception of a few state banks, but who also get their "money" funding from the Fed.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned banking institution, which in 1913 the Wilson Adminstration transferred total authority to under the Federal Reserve Act to print our currency, with no oversight at all by our Congress, and who has manipulated the U.S. and global economy ever since.

There was no bank bankruptcy at all. Those banks funded all the campaigns of those that ran in the 2008 election. Since those candidates couldn't get sufficient funding from corporate America, and the private citizens they went to the banks and banking institutions to fund their campaigns, and the "bailout" was a hoax. The banks were simply calling in their debts.

All those foreclosed mortgages were resold on the open market, so there was no underlying debt to those mortgages that the corporate banking attorneys moved in to foreclose upon. This has all been a Ponzi scheme and scam. Or haven't you figured that out yet, or since there is so many governmental bloggers on these "citizen" websites, from what I read on this one and its "global" focus, I can only assume this really is another "goverment funded" spin machine since most of the posters do seem to be not citizens truly at all, but subsidized bloggers, or governmental welfare receipients in some manner or another through either directly, or indirectly through their various 'corporate' memberships.

"The banks were simply calling in their debts." - interesting point.

Yeah, the problem is those debts weren't billed to the individual lackey legislators who borrowed those sums for their campaigns, it was borrowed from the Fed and billed to the American people which will result in all those inflationary taxes - and also was a move to depress our currency once again in order to facilitate foreign investment, which is what is occurring more and more.

As our dollar goes down, and other countries such as Canada and China's goes up, they are investing more and more in both U.S. major industries, and also now even our infrastructure.

And gaining more and more of a voice in our foreign policy and domestic policies through their K Stree lobbyists and economic investments.

They are facilitating world government by buying up shares in USA, Inc. with our federal "representatives" collusion and assistance more and more each administration. It's the Fed and bankers running this country. Obama, as Bush, is simply the mouthpiece.

Plus if you've ever seen my blog...you wouldn't even have to ask. By the way. What are you referring to when you say a "corporate" membership?

I can assure you I am a citizen. Now after reading this comment, clearly an ignorant one from time to time but forgive me, I did graduate from public school. So please forgive me, I have been trying to catch up ever since! I guess, I am looking more at the "little guy"/small business owner more than the actual larger company. I don't know. I need to mull this over.

How is NASA a successful government program today?

Any other "successful" government programs?

I see your points. Perhaps I wasn't clear on some of mine but also missed the mark on some as well. I will admit your comments have given me definite food for thought. I like to research this stuff and learn more about it, so I appreciate the thoroughness of your comments.

I don't remember voting for a CEO! And I missed that in the Constitution!

I do need to ask, however, how would you tell this family that the government did not take over their private company? http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/3428624-fascist-states-of-america-yes-but-its-not-too-late

Sorry this posted AGAIN!! Hopefully it's the last time. Although it is a fairly good comment, if I might say so myself. Just not 5 or 6 times, even for me.

Please remember it was "non-intervention" or regulation BY the Gov
that lead to quite a few financial "Black Holes" of late! Although
most times I take umbrage to Ross's view of things..I think he hits
the nail on the head in terms of USA Inc. To use the "people's" monies
to support the failure of Capitalism (for whatever reasons!) is most
certainly "Socialistic" in the truest sense of the word. State Capitalism with the People's money! Personally, I don't see this as the
"bogeyman" many Americans do. Canada, Sweden and a host of other countries have somewhat the same mix of Free Enterprise and State
support. It's known as a "mixed economy"! In large societies it is
essential that many enterprises are run by the state for the greater
good of ALL it's Citizens. School, Hospitals, Police and many Social
Service systems most certainly need to be organized and run this way.
Free enterprise and Capitalism are dynamic and innovative parts of
any economy but in themselves are not capable of providing the greatest
good for the most people. Without proper legislation and administration
of capitalism...we would still be almost feudal and be living in the
era of Lumber, Steel and Railway Barons of an earlier Century. In short, serfs & kings/ few rich and many hard-working poor living in
dire conditions. The advent of Unions, Rights, National Parks, FDA, etc
etc all came from progressive legislation for the benefit of the many
against the greed and opulence of the successful few.

No, unions came due to the fact that there wasn't any true governmental regulation of "commerce" within the states due to federal intervention. While our federal government is to regulate the large national and global concerns doing business in this country, inherently the state governments are to regulate the commercial businesses that are incorporated within their states. Unions were created due to both federal and state negligence in doing their actual jobs.

Much like most of the problems now in this country. Privatizing and getting into bed with corporations and their individual campaign donors, rather than abiding by our Constitution and regulating them in order to protect the weaker (citizens) against the stronger (corporations).

And that means your entire theory is off.

There should be no "national" parks at all in this country. Since our government is not suppose to own any property at all. If anything, the parks in this country are on state land, and should be state regulated, not nationally regulated.

You truly are totally out of touch with the differences between our government, and your own which places most of the power obviously with the Prime Minister and Parliment, and not the provinces.

We aren't Canada, which is still under ultimate British rule and control.

The term "the greatest good for the most people," is actually socialism, and while Canada's government may adhere to socialism, it is not our form of government, thank you.

I worked in labor law for many years, as a matter of fact. For the corporate counsel for Wal-Mart. And the original unionization idea may have been needed in order to prevent the sweatshops of the 20's and 30's, but the unions today are "corporate" members of the AFL-CIO and the unions basically want the pension monies to invest. Due to that GM merger and joint venture, the Hoffa years are going to look like a walk in the park now in this country. The union hierachy cares about their corporate interests above those union members.

And gee it appears just had a hand in laying off a good many of their members in Detroit.

It is the corporate lawyers in this country running the show, and were responsible for the creation in this country of "corporate personhood" as another party to our Constitution after the Civil War, and since that time with their "British" Bar brothers in the Supreme Court in this country, have gained more and more "privileges and immunities" over the lawful citizens, this "illegal" party to it. And busting up those "corporate" unions and "associations" of big businesses is what is needed, who are dominating and price fixing the global and U.S. markets due to this phantom "person-hood," - that is what is needed in order to re-establishh "free markets" at least in America once again.

It seems all you are doing is addressing the symptoms without addressing the actual cause. But then, of course, you are a Canadian, and our history is different than yours. And so is our Constitution.

I am upset that we have allowed our government to get this out of control. Which leads me to this... http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/3366782-left-and-right-wrong

Considering the state of the businesses that the government is becoming involved in I would say that they were FAR from successful; otherwise, the government would no be stepping in.

BTW: General assumptions are very dangerous. Various government agencies have had some successes, like NASA as Slydog said.

NOAA has done a lot to help keep us safe in bad weather times preventing thousands of deaths.

Believe it or not Social Security was working to some extent UNTIL Congress started dipping their hands in the cookie jar and not paying it back.

The FCC did a great job of controlling the radio and TV airwaves until some other government agency deregulated them.

Most countries have a national health program of some sort including us, it's called Medicaid, and before you complain about the higher taxes, those taxes will be no where near the cost people are paying for insurance.

Baloney. With each successive administration the costs will increase, and so will the dipping. They dipped into Social Security, so will also dip into this. And I surely do not want the government in this country determining who lives and dies. And in a malpractice claim, or denial of coverage - just who are you going to sue? The government? Yeah, I'm sure those federal judges will claim "state interest" and "sovereignty" and deny access to the courts.

What a deluded individual. You trust the government with your health records, and determining the level of your care? And those costs?

The insanity of such an idea is simply unbelievable.

What they need to do to lower costs is again do their jobs, and that is to regulate the global and national insurers, not hop into bed with Warren Buffett.

While you do add very interesting points, did you notice that you started off with how they were good and then had to make an excuse for why they are not now? There is a pattern there.

As for me complaining about higher taxes, no I would complain about a government doing things it was never given the authority to do. Regardless of how good of an intention it might be. There are other ways to achieve those goals and the government should have stayed within the role they were specifically given. Now that they have not, it gets out of control and begins to fall apart.

It's possible the whole moon thing was staged in Hollywood, which judging by the number of viewers WAS a success - did you see the ratings back then?

Some heated argument about the American govt.Your article created quite a stir Msmystero!

Getting people to really take time to think and talk about what is going on around us, that is exactly what I hoped to help accomplish. As an American I am appalled by the level of apathy and ignorance that I see around me and at times I find in myself as well.

The United States government now holds the largest monopoly in US history. The takeover of GM violated anti-trust laws and the Constitution.

What is happening in the US was not a three year making... it has been occuring over many decades as the States easch one by one relinquished their own power to the Federal Government.

When do you people sleep?

You are absolutely correct. And since my former Governor in Arizona is now in charge of Homeland Security for the entire nation, after sacrificing her fellow Arizonans for her political career and the foreign terrorists from Mexico, I don't sleep much at all.

She's a piece of work.

Enough said there.

oh come on...Hillary's the best and we all know it.:)

I was wondering where you were!

easch= each - in Irish, after half a bottle of whiskey -Which, technically I can say since I am 100% irish and can laugh at my own stereotype in society!!

While I see the attempt at levity here, I feel this is a great deal of the problem. There are so many that identify with their "ancestry" and not this country still - and that is ESPECIALLY true of the Latino community since they have been given "privileges and immunities" that the European immigrants were not. Such as ballots in Spanish, and welfare benefits at the citzens expense, and much, much more.

a

No shame in being Irish- power to the people! =)

Read George Washington's speech about alliances, rather than putting a spin on what I posted which is what you have done. In times of war, yes there are alliances. After those wars are over, those "peace treaties," were never meant to be perpetual, only temporary for the purposes at hand. And that has not been the case since World War II and all the treaties that occurred thereafter.

We are in bed with the British and other European alliances whose interests are different than our own. So you might brush up on American history, as you do seem to be of the generation that was giving absolutely no insruction on our Constitution, or much in the way of a background in American history, the founding fathers, or our Constitution.

And your arguments actually simply prove it.

Maryannscarangello, I provided information about this kind of UN intervention in the raising of OUR children in a post on my blog a while back... in case you are interested in the article I used here is the link: http://thatimaystand.blogspot.com/2009/02/losing-your-rights-to-raise-your.html

Additionally - let's look at the United Nations and their push to have a hand in the laws of he overall nations, including the rights of parental decision over the raising of their children. Hardly even DISCUSSED - I've yet to see even mention of it even here - and the Obama adminstration supports it. Madeline Albright signed it back in 1995 but it never passed the Senate. Think it would have trouble raising the 2/3rds majority NOW?
Think about it - if you're thinking world government - taking parents rights to decide the religion, schooling and decisions of their children DOES sound a little more like the HILTER Youth program than AMERICA

Since this is the only comment where I can respond to your misinformation, as far as "alliances," temporary alliances as what occurred with World War II are one thing. Permanent ones such as we have with Britian and Israel, whose interest really are quite separate from our own as states with no freedom of religion, and also democracies when we are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, has jeopardized our own country. And selling out our economy to the global market in the process has just stripped thousands of your fellow Americans of their homes and jobs, as in the border states and Detroit.

Wake up

Now you are completely picking and choosing your comments. You can't cite the time frame of your argument as being from world war II then when called out on its incorrectness as 'being 'one thing'. That completely disputes your entire argument in that matter. Set up a correct time frame about which you mean, don't back peddal and then think you can tell someone to 'wake up'. Picking and choosing alliances whether they are temporary or permanent - in any aspect - is contrary to your argument. You either want no alliances, or you want them with certain specifications or within certain situational parameters. Make up your mind and take your argument from there. Now also you need to clarify at what time you think we sold out our economy and in which administration that resulted our poor fellow americans to lose their homes and jobs. I ask this because my only argument in this entire thread is simply that it's too early in this administration to say what is or has happened. If you are talking about another time frame I might agree with you, but you aren't being clear.

ah... see, I drink coffee in the morning and read over what was posted 4 hours earlier and wonder if you, slydog, Changez, redhanded and ross - EVER sleep....

I have three kids too and run a business... I actually go to bed occassionally -

AND... for Ross - I actually WISH I was an attorney - PERSONAL INJURY at that!~

No you wouldn't. Because selling your soul to the devil is part of the profession nowadays. It isn't what it once was, that is for sure. No longer a profession, merely an industry. And really the most corrupted now of all, since most of those unconstitutional laws on the books wee written by lawyers, for their own benefit most of all.

Good point - I actually DO wish to meet my maker someday and I still view that person as God.... and none other.

person?

on Tuesdays.

HAHAHA! I will admit I wish I had their bank account!

Lawyers, thought their various "associations" and also the NGOs that the now chair after that ACLU "bought" statute is why God and morals are now pretty much gone, and also are the biggest welfare recipients bar none of the public purse.

Their bank accounts are handed to them by their bar brothers in attorney fee awards, and also through their lobbying efforts - the largest contributors to state and federal campaign coffers above Big Business. So I guess you are a closet thief, eh? Because the word "shyser" in the English language applies to both lawyers, and politicians.

So I guess you are an "ends justifies the means" type person?

NO! I can assure you I was just making a joke.

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/19/the-obamacare-horror-story-you-won%e2%80%99t-hear/

MsMystro,The damage that is being done to this country by the Far-Left will take years to undo if people don't get off their asses and start to vote-out all of these Big Spending, Deficit creating Socialists. We the people have the power. As I keep saying, I am a Citizen of the USA, greatest country in the world bar none. I don't want to be a citizen of the world and sing cumbaya hurray, hurray!!Treat this country like you own it, treat it as if it were a child of yours.. Anyone that has complaints, needs to opologize for anything we've done should simply move out to the country of their choice.

There is no "left" or right." Both parties have merged and are one, the "globalists." You are either "conservative" and hold with the Constitution until it is LAWFULLY amended, or you are "liberal" and reading into it whatever you want in order to justify your positions.

The "left" and "right" are dead. And so are the "Democrats" and "Republicans," long ago. There are what you would call "leftists" on both sides of the aisle. And really there are any true statesmen or conservatives at this point at all. Since if they were, they would be calling for the Sergeant at Arms to be arresting most of those on the Hill for treason during roll call votes. Or at least abstaining from those votes until they could read the bills.

There are all traitors, and "liberals," every single one of them, in their voting records and positions.

It was never meant to be a "living" Constitution or document. That's what insured that we had Constitutional government. And each of the amendments after its ratification, due to the 9th Amendment, required those amendments to be placed before the public, before the state's could ratify them. So other than the 13th and 14th directed toward the slavery issue, and the one granting women the right to vote, most of those other amendments are actually also unconstitutional, since they do no align with the "intent" of the founders for people determined government. I said MOST, not all, as you will note - since the slavery issue was a bone of contention from the outset, and due to the wars and fact that women became property holders and heads of households due to loss of husbands and fathers - voting originally was determined according to "property" ownership, since it was "property" alone which was taxed.

That's why I wrote my article.... http://thatimaystand.blogspot.com/2009/05/left-and-right-wrong.html OR http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/3366782-left-and-right-wrong

Redhanded101, Wow, that is sure a "this country can do no wrong" blind faith attitude about the USA and blaming all your angst on the "Far-Left", whatever folks you hallucinate fill that generalized bucket. Take your blinders off. The earth rotates around the Sun, not around the United States.
- jongleur

But as far as "government" it is the United States, not the rest of the world, that our statesmen (Ha) are duty bound to protect, not the rest of the world nor interject in the affairs of their countries unless and until our own is threatened. That is what "sovereignty" and "sovereign countries" is all about.

We are not a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic, and there is a world of difference between the two.

What I think is especially interesting here is the fact that Obama, after only 5 months being in office, is already been torn to pieces by actions the government has taken. This is not to say that I agree with any/all of the measures he has taken, but he has not been in office NEARLY long enough for any one of us to see whether or not these measures will have positive or negative effects. You can speculate all you want but at the end of the day, all it remains to be is speculation. Bush had 96 months in office. 96 months compared to 5 months. Are you kidding me?

Whatever was going on pre-Bush and during Bush inevitably got us to where we are now. So how is it possible to complain that the very fundamentals of our country are collapsing? We clearly need something that's drastically different- because what we were doing before was NOT working. And what's especially beautiful about this country is that if you HATE the way the government is going, in 4 years you can change it. But at the end of the day, you need to see whether or not these measures will hurt or help us. They have done neither yet- and your speculation means nothing until the proof is in the pot. The End.

bingo

Obama has done more in the way of shredding the Constitution, and placing this country in debt than Bush did in 96 months. And he is following the Bush agenda with respect to the Iraq accord that Bush signed, and is fully responsible now for bailing out the Big Three at the general public's expense, which is not within his power to do - nor is it within Congressional power to give "privileges and immunities" to corporations above the rights of the people.

You really do need an education in the Constitution, government and American history, that is for sure.

Bush and Obama are dictated to by the members on the Board of the Federal Reserve, who prints our currency and runs this economy through the puppets on the Hill. That is why very little changes except the taxation levels with a change of administration. And was an unlawful transfer of governmental powers to begin with.

So, as I said, wake up and start educating yourself - because you are totally unaware of how we got where we are, and why.

You are right the proof is in the pot as you say. And the proof has been piling up for YEARS. I blame many administrations and congresses AND courts. But don't kid yourself, Obama has picked up the speed and played his hand like a pro. Doing more in 6+ months than most Presidents do in their first term but with the help of MANY MANY people ranging from the government to the media. Never has a President had such a lack of checks and balances. It is dangerous.

MsMystro, Lack of checks and balances? Those were jettisoned during the Bush/Cheney administration, where "Executive Privilege" was taken to such extremes that the White House ruled the Justice Department and refused to cooperate with the 9/11 Committee or investigation into outing Valerie Plame (how are our leaders exempt from testifying under oath?), spied on ordinary Americans and gave sweeping powers to Homeland Security, arrested and detained people indefinitely, not to mention the whole torture debacle, and even worst marginalized the Legislative Branch and obstructed lawmaking efforts that disagreed with the Neocon agenda.
- jongleur

No, actually, "executive privileges" and "signing statements" really started their roll with Clinton, not Bush, although he took more advantage of it. The expansion of the Executive Office has been done with their lackeys in the Supreme Court who are political appointees, and whose salaries depend on the President signing the bill for their compensation which is tied in with legislative salaries.

So you are way off there, since Clinton and the first Bush too started the careening lack of checks on the Pres. And Congress likes to blame the President when in most cases a great deal of that legislation is their fault - since the DO write it, and also have the power to call for impeachment proceedings.

So that is an excuse. It is ALL those on the Hill in collusion for their own power grabs. Each and every one of them, with none abiding by the "Rule of Law" and Constitution.

You know, you can't blame everything on Bush. And I blamed many Administrations for what we are going through. I will continue to stand behind my assertion that Obama has more freedom from checks and balances than any other administration when you look at his lack of real resistance from government to media. Please don't tell me President Bush had that.

Hey Ms..just getting back to you on the Canadian Health Care
stuff. Rather than inundate you with my rhetoric or cheering for
our Universal system...below is a link to a dialogue that looks at
the pros & cons of both systems. Worth a read as there are some
good points and stats made on both sides of the issue. Like all
GOOD debates..there are two or more sides to every story and as
many points of view as there are people..that's what debate is!

http://forums.caranddriver.com/showthread.php?p=1586110

Problem is, in this country Warren Buffett will be running it, of Geico fame. And that is NOT good. NOT at all. As payback for his support of the Dems during the campaign, most likely buying up some of the AIG debts of the London office.

And socialized medicine in this country would be a disaster, giving the U.S. government "corporate capitalists" that those insurers and bankers are, God like powers over who lives and dies in this country. That is a horror too horrific to even imagine.

So ballyhoo Canada's "plan," and the waiting lines, and fact that many along the Canadian border come to this country for their health care due to that very reason. And also it is "bare bones," as with the British plan, and Michael Moore is such a propagandist and socialist, this country couldn't be more screwed if that passes. Look at Medicare, and the substandard care there for a clue.

slydog, As one of millions and millions of uninsured Americans who believes that the U.S. Health Care system is unaffordable, unavailable, and unacceptable, I thank you for jumping into this conversation and sharing your balanced view of the Canadian Health Care system, which has intrigued me as a model of what the U.S. should provide to every citizen.
- jongleur

I think there is a huge risk to what he is doing, true- but I also think that what we were doing before, which led to proof piling up for years throughout the many administrations and congresses we've had is proof enough that we need something that's drastically different. Don't get me wrong- if any of these work, I do not want them permanently in place, but for the time being it is necessary to try so that we can stop skidding downhill. Whether or not the changes he's made will work though, we still have yet to see. We just don't know yet.

With Washington, NOTHING is temporary. The income tax was to be "temporary." Social security was to be "temporary."

Bone up on your history, because you continue to be off the mark with your perspectives.

Simply research NWO everything is going to plan. Doesn't matter who or what the "President" purports to represent.

On the contrarty, in a democracy, WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT! But we've been brainwashed to think otherwise and now the private industry has taken over the government and so we we blame the "government." Wake up people before it's too late. Read the Constitution of the USA. OF, FOR, and BY the People. These laws we're meant to serve us, but now we have become servants to the law and who makes the law, BIG BUISSNESS. Take the power back, people.

burgerchessking, Private industry has been pulling the puppet strings since well before our lifetimes and I agree we need to all be educated on the Constitution to empower us all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
- jongleur

Reading the Constitution and KNOWING every word of the Declaration of Independence is no longer required curriculum in the public school system....

How can we expect the people of tomorrow to understand the concept of a Republic if they are never required to learn it?

If you say parents - I would wonder how many PARENTS remember the verbage of either - or could name 5 amendments to the Constitution?

I had to memorize the Preamble, Patrick Henry's speech, and the first ten amendments. Not a single one of my kids learned anything in government, except the three branches and nothing really of the history or Constitution itself. Absolutely nothing.

maryannscarangello, Thanks for adding this reminder! From one parent to another, knowing the Constitution is critical to giving a historical cornerstone and context to guide our future generations. This learning was sure pounded into me all through school, but that was "way back when." How this country's education system has morphed since then is another subject.
- jongleur

You sound so levelheaded in this comment and yet not in your last one. I am fascinated by that contradiction. To be honest I figured you for a mindless MSNBC Bush-hating conspiracy nut (my apologies if you are not). Then you gave us this excellent comment about our founding document and how vital it is to our future generations. Now you have me stumpted (but that's not hard to do sometimes).

Morphed is putting it politely - it's been LOST COMPLETELY to the Teachers Union.

It's online... all of it...just a click away.

Perhaps true but knowing fact from fiction online is what our children desperately need to be taught. Sending them out on the "web" for information is not going to assure them accuracy in their research.

It is - for most - and whether parents have time to make sure their kids read and understand them before they put the kids to bed would be my only concern there - as parents are quite stretched now as it is...

and access to the net - is still not readily available to all....



In addition - I wonder if it will be required to understand the fundementals and principles of the US - the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, and ALL the history - good and bad that came after - before being sworn in as a US citizen under the upcoming AMNESTY program?

I also wonder how many truthfully nationalized citizens appreciate the possibility of 10 million plus citizens being "swormed" in after they did it the CORRECT way?

As I was saying, everything is going according to plan. Keep bleating little sheep.

By ALESSANDRA RIZZO, Associated Press Writer Alessandra Rizzo, Associated Press Writer – Fri Jun 19, 11:13 am ET

ROME – More than a billion people — a sixth of the world's population — are now hungry, a historic high due largely to the global economic crisis and stubbornly high food prices, a U.N. agency said Friday.

Compared with last year, there are 100 million more people who are hungry, meaning they consume fewer than 1,800 calories a day, the Food and Agriculture Organization said.

And many of them in the United States, living in the washes in Arizona made homeless by the mortgage mess, and open borders situation.

That is why aligning our country's economy with that of other nations has harmed the quality of life and survival of Americans. Start checking your stats with the American Red Cross, and realize that we will never be able to assist in any significant way with the "world" hunger issue, until we tackle our own.

The office of President of the United States has a term limit, but the legislature does not. The apathy started when the voters keep putting the give me more money do nothing Senators and Representatives. The current state of affairs in New York state is a prime example!

New York? Try Arizona who is at war. The Eastern elitist mentality reins, that's for sure. New York has problems? Pleeezzzz.

Our elected representatives are served up to us by the two mainstream parties. There are no free and fair elections in this country. So we didn't "vote" them into office, we were given a choice of two. Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum in most instances.

AMEN!

I agree, but I would add greed to the apathy. They can now vote for people who promise to give them things.

It didn't start roller coasting with the current adminstration - it started with the New Deal.

Term limits for Congress... ABSOLUTELY - I wonder if they will vote for it! :)

Yep, right after they vote to LOWER their wages.

and sign up for their new government healthcare program

I wish I would have thought of that! Must be all that sleep you get!

I used to be out until 5 am partying up a storm back in the good ole days ... but it's amazing what a little time, a few kids and a few more wrinkles ... and some sleep can bring you to! CONSERVATISM!!! WHO KNEW!!??

A joke friends- for my good non-sleeping friend MSMYSTRO

jongleur

You may not read the articles at CATO but here are three you might want to look at:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6407

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/03/10/looking-to-a-failed-model-for-health-care-reform/

and -

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10268

I live in Massachusetts and while I fully agree that there needs to be something done about healthcare - time should be taken to make sure their model is NOT Massachusetts.

I haven't read these yet but I don't want the government's grubby little mits on health care at all. In fact here is a case and point (except I will be really brief). My mom, who is so FAR from elderly it would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting in this situation, would not be covered for a life saving procedure she may need under similar government health care programs. Why? Because of her age. Now, someday those bureaucrats who made that law are going to get older and become the obsolete people they once discarded from their society. So what we have is FAR BETTER than what we think we are getting with "affordable" health care or "free" health care. "Free" isn't really free at all. You don't have health care? Get a job that offers it. You can't? Then I bet you already qualify for government health care of some sort (so I wouldn't really complain about not having any coverage). If not that either, I very much question the honesty of your situation. And someday, assuming you make it out of the womb these days, you mind find yourself too old to be of any real worth to those in charge...if we don't stop stuff like this now. I will fight until I cannot take another breath against this type of government control. Now I don't advocate any kind of violent revolt but looking towards the kind of reform and protest AND RESULTS gained by those like Dr. King, there is where you will find my inspiration for action today.

They already get all of their health care for free and don't even have to pay for anything like insurance. And when they do leave office, even if it is for only one term, they get a pension equal to their salary. Talk about waste!!!

You're right about the greed. Money talks very loudly!

And they voted themselves those benefits. And don't fool yourselves. Your state legislators are not underpaid either. Most of them have huge expense accounts, health care plans, and per diems for extra sessions and work the do when they are not in session. And then feed their corporate backers and deny their fellow countrymen what they vote for themselves - privileges and immunities.

These were public service positions, and no benefits were to be afforded as such only minimal salaries, like jury duty. Unbelieveable. The founders would be rolling over, since they got something like $16 per session as compensation.

AMEN!

MsMystro, Thank you for posting this report and firing up this conversation. Challenging each other is healthy and puts us in "each others shoes"--which builds empathy, transcends differences, and promotes a collaborative spirit.
- jongleur

As far as your comment whether I work for the government. I do, I work for the real government. Our Constitution. So as far as those in Washington and Ms. Napolitano, I am one of those right wing extremists and public enemy #1 - because I can actually read it, whereas they cannot.

Then in that case count me in! By the way, have I sufficiently made my case that I don't work for the "government" and I'm not a lawyer? I'm only asking because I am dying to know. I wouldn't even bring it up (the whole "thou doth protest too much" potential) but you gotta understand this is a first for me and I am really curious.

Based upon the rampant government posters, especially on these "global voices" sites for as grant money funded in most instances, and SOME of your positions and posts, I reserve judgement. Since the bio alone is a little over the top, and based on some of the comments......the jury is out.

I don't like to admit it when I am wrong or don't know something. So, that on the table I honestly didn't think about, and should have, grant money funding global sites for what I would assume would be propaganda or basically forming public opinion. And on the other topic, seriously, have you visited my personal blog? I soooo don't work for the "government". I suppose I may not convince you otherwise but before I leave it at that, I just have to ask. What positions/posts would possibly lead you to think that I DO work for the "government"? My husband finds your suspicion hysterical, but he knows me. So if nothing else you have definitely given them a great family story! As for my bio, I don't mean for it to be over the top but I have crammed a lot in a short amount of time but it is all true. Plus I left out all the boring parts. Thank you for your all your comments. They have been extremely helpful, both to me and I am sure many others as we try to expand our knowledge of what we are seeing happen around us today as well as our understanding of history.

What about stopping money laundering that goes on unabated, especially by
using the internet for gambling etc. You may make a few investments of
several billions of stolen money but it's all money laundering that should not be allowed to continue. 20/6/2009.

Did I miss something that you are replying to?

Yes you did, Government run programs. 20/6/2009.

Speaking of greedy governments. The legislature of NY state get over $80,000 plus around $150 per day perdiem for the 140 days they are in session and some of them have the NERVE to complain that they can't make ends meet! And that doesn't count all of those extra perks like free health care, free gas, and whatever else they get.

Nor do they seem to be able to come up with a budget by 4/1 each year...or has that changed since I existed a somewhat conservative upstate NY to the liberal bullsh** state of Massachusetts?

They have managed to pass it on time a few times in the past several years but this year they have something like a $20 billion deficit that they can't fix. Lately all they can do is argue and complain about the governor.

Boy oh boy, did I miss out on a heck of a discussion! Talk about getting sleep. Just call me Rip Van Winkle. Too many great but complicated points to address here. But I did want to add to Ross's point about the utter LACK of knowledge our children, ourselves and in some cases our own parents have of our country's Constitution and history. The textbooks today are so full of revisionist spin, it's frightening. My mom had some old school papers of my grandfather's from his FIFTH GRADE American History class in Kinsley, Kansas back from the turn of the century. He had to memorize the Constituion paragraph by paragraph and put it into his own words and then he had to write an essay as to why the American Constitution is worth defending with your life! Most college professors today couldn't do this let alone an American 5th grader. And we pay more and more every year for crappier and crappier education. Though I pay for my kids to go to public school through mis-used tax dollars, I choose to pay less than that same amount again as I send them to our parish school. So far their education, though not as excellent as their great-grandfather's public education in Kinsley, Kansas, has proven much more advanced and thorough than their cousins currently in the U.S. public education system. It floors me that a small Catholic school can accomplish better education of kids on a shoestring yet our public schools scream for MORE funding. I went to both private and public schools. The American taxpayer is paying to uneducate our future, no doubt in my mind.

Amanda - one word - UNION.

I spent $4,237.17 this year on KINDERGARTEN at the PUBLIC school.

Nothing more need be said. That's some pricey juice and cookies. Oops, in today's kindergarten it's probably bottled water and organic baby carrots. NO wonder school costs are thru the roof! God help us.

And no doubt in the proof if you just look at the "knowledge" our generation has compared to previous ones. Is is nothing short of criminal if you ask me.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I.m not really sure what the gist of this argument is aside from Ross thinking Liberal and Socialists are insults? Anyone care to elucudate?

There was a lot addressed here, which "argument" are you asking about?

I think I can answer your question as to the gist -

The American educational system is no longer teaching the students in the public education arena the basics of our Republic which is the major reason the YOUTH of today does not understand the core values of the United States or vote for its structure.

Our country is not a socialist government. Our Constitution does NOT give the power to the government - the government is for the people by the people and that our voice is no longer heard because through the failure of the educational structure which is RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT and UNIONS - the fundementals of our very being AS A REPUBLIC has been removed.

ahhh...
I would add that the steady erosion of civil rights by various circumscribed and obfuscatory laws and the propaganda/distraction blitz by a corporate news media has it part to play. The best way to beat power is to have it yourself and knowledge is that power.

Knowledge about the rest of the world, challenging conventional discourse would go a long way in giving the U.S. back to it's people.
But you have to fight for it. Citizens are the last defence of the constitution. Life is too short to trust your government. Your founding fathers knew that.
The wrote this enlightened document called the constitution, they each being singular and enlightened men themselves. A constitution that delineates the rights of people as they saw them and they entrusted these rights to the people they were meant to empower. But they knew that there would always be men who would look to use government to oppress people anyway. And that the last defence of those rights would be with the citizens.

:)

...."so everyone wound up agreeing to disagree. The moral to this story, children, is it doesn't matter who has more valid points in a discussion turned argument, defensive, name throwing, it's all just a ping pong game and the ball is the void and the rackets are the ego of humankind, it doesn't matter what the subject is...and that's the end of the story boys and girls..."goodnight little darlings, sweet dreams. Mummy is going to turn off the light now."

I guess the government has all the money from high taxes on goods and services that they can afford to give some back to the people. If they are
prepared to give out trillions of dollars I'm not going to say no. 30/9/2009.