Did Obama just kiss the black vote goodbye?
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Did Obama just kiss the black vote goodbye?

Washington : DC : USA | May 17, 2012 at 7:05 AM PDT
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for gay marriage: arguments against homophobic reasons

There comes a time in the mental maturation of every intellect when the intellectual curiosity must ask the unthinkable question.

When President Obama recently expressed his personal views on gay marriage, did he just lose the biggest block vote he has, that of African American voters?

Did this one singular pronouncement do what Republican strategists have been plotting for four years (how to reduce the 2012 black vote under the 90 percentile mark) with their black surrogates who have argued since day one of the Obama era whether “blacks should go along with everything Obama says, just because he is black?”

This past Sunday morning African American pastors all over America had to either defy the president’s words or they struggled painfully to find words to make their biblical understanding palatable with the historic words “I personally believe that gays should have the right to marry…,” spoken for the first time by an American president.

Perhaps Obama’s lack of cultural connections to the black community when he was growing up caused him to miscalculate the backlash he would receive from the black community over his embrace of gay marriage.

Albeit any red-blooded African American growing up in and around the Black Church knows that these church goers do not, by and large, cotton to the notion of homosexuality. It has only been in recent years that black church folks have warmed to accepting members who engage in what is perceive as an alternative lifestyle.

However, the Black Church has not matured to the point that it is willing to accept men marrying men and women marrying women.

One point that is missing in the firestorm of debate that has grown up surrounding this presidential view is that the president spoke his personal beliefs. He fell short, by several miles, of urging any federal legislation that would make it a federally protected right for same-sex marriages.

He in fact promised nothing to the LGBT community. Yet this community fell for the president’s sentiment, as if Obama would fight to have his expressed sentiment cast into the black letter of the law. He did not state he would do any such thing.

In the African American community black theologians and worshippers failed to grasp the silent nuances of the President’s pronouncement. They have drawn a line in the sand - a line between those who see the expressed sentiment of the president in opposition to the biblical dictates that marriage is a sacred institution ordained by God between a man and a woman and homophobic members looking for any excuse to bash the gay lifestyle, even if it does not include same-sex marriage.

To be sure, there are biblical scholars more proficient in the scriptural text than I, but it would appear the Bible is silent on the issue of same-sex marriage.

Perhaps, this is so because same-sex marriage was such an unthinkable idea in ancient Israel, early Judaism and early Christianity. Back then those who engaged in same-sex acts were “in an environment where male-male intercourse was often more of an accepted practice than it is in our own contemporary culture,” (Dr. Robert Gagnon, author of The Bible and Homosexual Hermeneutics, Abingdon, 2001) yet they dared not seek the sanctions of society for a same-sex union on par with the biblical dictate for male-female relationships.

We do know that the scriptures denounce the practice of same-sex copulation. Gagnon states: “The ‘big picture’ of the Bible on the issue of homosexual practice is not some vague concept of love and tolerance of every form of consensual sex but rather this complenentarity of male-female bonds and the universal restriction of acceptable sexual activity to heterosexual marriage.”

Seemingly, biblical teachings since the dispensation of “Grace” began up until the present age had to do with showing love for persons engaged in this practice as one would show love to persons engaged in any other Levitical scriptural prohibition. The black church is just beginning to wrap its collective head around the latter posit.

While on the other hand, same-sex marriage is a new issue for a new dispensation, it would appear that no theologian has yet been given a word from on high in response to this notion of equality. Or, more precisely bridging the philosophical thought of “Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you” as it relates to the emerging same-sex marriage ethos.

However, Gagnon believes, “God has deemed that sexual intercourse be an experience between complementary sexual ‘others’ that creates a ‘one-flesh’ union, a celebration of sexual diversity and pluralism in the best sense of the terms.”

It is this postulation that has the black church up in arms over the heartfelt beliefs of President Obama. Never in the annals of history has homosexuals bravely demanded equity on par with heterosexual spouses as they are doing in early twenty-first century America.

I submit the two constituencies have largely misinterpreted the president’s announcement. In one instance he is heavily applauded in the LGBT community; while his position on same sex marriage confuses and befuddles African Americans, a block of voters the President desperately needs to stay solid if he has any hope of repeating the miracle of ’08.

Should the president poll less than 10 percent of the percentage of black voters who voted for him in 2008, he will likely not win re-election.

The silver lining for black voters is that this president now needs black voters like any other candidate who has ever sought and won the White House since Lincoln.

No longer can President Obama take the black vote for granted. This is the first time during his administration that a significant number of African Americans (41% in recent polls on same-sex marriage) have found a reason to disagree with his philosophical bent.

The fact this strong disagreement with the president comes less than six months from Election Day means President Obama must bargain with black leaders like Dr. Cornel West, Tavis Smiley, the Congressional Black Caucus and others.

These leaders have argued that President Obama’s failure to deal with issues specifically targeted to the African American community has been a black eye on his leadership in the area of civil rights.

Black leaders are now in a position to extract concrete concessions from President Obama on what he will specifically do to address issues peculiar to America’s black citizens. No longer can President Obama hide behind the theory that a rising tide lifts all boats.

Otherwise, black Americans may sit on their hands this fall caught between the Gospel of same sex marriage according to Barack and the Gospel of black priesthood according to Mormonism.

One Midwestern pastor who holds a national office in a well known civil rights organization said last Sunday he told his church: “We do not have the luxury to get upset with someone over any particular sin as a litmus test to determine our political support; especially in these economic times. As a church we know that God does not condone homosexual sex, but HE shutters just the same, over that lie you told yesterday.”

If you like writing about U.S. politics and the 2012 campaign, enter "The American Pundit" competition. Allvoices is awarding four $250 prizes each month between now and November. These monthly winners earn eligibility for the $5,000 grand prize, to be awarded after the November election.

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A same-sex couple kiss during a celebratory toast to President Obama's support of same-sex marriage in San Francisco
A same-sex couple kiss during a celebratory toast to President Obama's support of same-sex marriage in San Francisco
Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. is based in Atlanta, Georgia, United States of America, and is an Anchor for Allvoices.
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Posted By TruthSeeker1984 TruthSeeker1984 | about 1 year ago
Harvey, you mentioned in this article that the Black Church has not matured enough to the point that they are willing to accept same sex marriage. I could not disagree more. It's not a matter of maturing, but it's a matter of continuing to stand for the principles of God as written in the Word of God. I also disagree that the Bible is silent on the issue of same sex marriage. In contrary, the Bible is clear how God feels about homosexuality. This is no mystery. I would list scriptures here to verify this, but I'm not preaching a sermon. I'm simply stating facts. Anyone who knows the Bible and reads the Bible with even the minimum level of understanding can clearly see that the Bible does not support homosexuality or any other sins for that matter. God created Adam and Eve; not Adam and Steve. That's all we really need to know. If God desired for a man to marry a man, then he would have not first created a man and a woman and said that it is good thing for a man to find a WIFE. See, the problem is that society has changed. Things that were totally unacceptable 20 years ago have now become the acceptable social norm in our society. God does not change, so should we? God's word has remained the same, so why have we changed? It is my conviction that in order for me to consider myself a Christian, I must love what God loves and hate what he hates. I must support what God supports and refuse to support what God does not support. It is clear in the Bible and in my heart what God does and does not support. As much as I love President Obama, I cannot support him anymore. For me to continue to support him would mean that I am supporting what he supports and I simply cannot do that with a clear conscience. With that said, I fully support freedom of choice. We all should be able to be free to make our own choices because it is we ourselves who have to live with the consequences of our choices and no one else. I choose to support what God supports. I choose to stand out and be different and live by standards in my life that allow me to have a clear conscience with God. At the end of the day, what is most important to me is having a peaceful sleep and knowing that the choices that I make in my life are ones that I know would be pleasing to God. Just as many believe that gay individuals should have the right to live their lives as they please, they should also in return respect the rights of others not to support what they consider to be an ungodly lifestyle.
Reply By LadyeCatte LadyeCatte | about 1 year ago
Then you are a FOOL. Your long diatribe resembles the editorials in Southern newspapers pre-1964, speaking of how "white superiority" was ordained by God, that slavery was God's way of keeping the Earth for white men only.

"Preach" your bigotry as you must. Just know that you are NO better than they who sought to keep us in the back of the bus simply because we are "different". I don't even go to church, and I stand for what is right, as does my President. "Ungodly" is what I read in your words of bigotry, discrimination and segregation.

All this prejudice you're emoting is doing nothing more than giving those pre-1964 minds like yours reason to bring up those passages in the bible again regarding the African's place in the world.
Bigotry is bigotry, and using the bible as a shield for such an evil attitude is a far greater sin than falling in love with someone of the same sex.
Posted By TruthSeeker1984 TruthSeeker1984 | about 1 year ago
To answer your first question, “Did the President just lose the biggest block vote he has?” I say no. The reason I say no is because I believe that most African Americans will vote for the President regardless of his support of same sex marriage. I don’t think most that African Americans feel that this is a big enough issue to cause them not to vote for him. I do disagree with your statement that the Black Church has not matured to the point that it is willing to accept same sex marriage. It’s not an issue of maturity. It’s an issue of morality. I hope to God that I never “mature” to that point either. I do agree with you that the President only stated his opinion and not once did he say that he would do anything within his power to see to it that same sex marriage becomes the legal norm. I disagree with you that individuals whom you call “homophobic” are only looking for an excuse to bash the gay lifestyle. I don’t consider individuals who do not support same sex marriage as homophobic. A homophobic person is one who is afraid of homosexuals and I can personally attest that I am not afraid of gay people. I have a gay cousin whom I adore with all my heart, but I do not and I will not support same sex marriage because God does not support it. I choose to support what God supports, which does not make me homophobic, but it makes me a Christian with values. Surely, there has to be some who are homophobic and are only using this issue as an excuse to bash the gay lifestyle, but this is not the case with everyone who does not support same sex marriage. Everyone who does not support same sex marriage should not be grouped into the category of being homophobic. I also disagree with you that the Bible is silent in regards to same sex marriage. This is completely false. Anyone who has ever read the Bible and has even a minimal understanding of scriptures can clearly see what the Bible says about homosexuality as well as all other sins. God made Adam and Eve for a reason. I could quote many scriptures that clearly show how God feels about homosexuality, but I won’t because this is not a sermon. It’s a reply to your article. I do agree that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. With that said, we should treat people right regardless of who they are or what they do. This does not mean that we should support things that we know God does not support. We can treat a person right and love a person without agreeing with or loving what they do. God loves sinners because he sent his son to die for sinners, but God does not love the sin. That’s the big difference. I will go on to say that I do not support same sex marriage, nor will I support anyone who supports it. What is most important to me is living my life in a way that is pleasing to God and supporting the things that I know God supports according to his word and according to the convictions in my own heart. I cannot have a clear conscience with God and support something that I know God does not support. These are my convictions that I will stand by, live by, and die by. With that said, I completely support the freedom of choice. In all instances, God never takes away a person’s freedom to choose neither would I ever try to do that. We all reap the consequences of the choices that we make, therefore, we alone should be the ones allowed to make them. Just as many feel that gay individuals should have the right and the freedom to choose who they want to be with, individuals such as myself also have the right to refuse to support same sex marriage without being labeled as homophobic, prejudice, or judgmental. With that said, I do believe that the President has much to offer America. As I weigh the pros and cons, I must decide whether the good that the President has to offer has been outweighed by his support of same sex marriage. I think that this is something that we all must think about. At the end of the day, what is most important to me is to have a clear conscience with God because I like to sleep and I like to have peace to go along with it.
Posted By hmichaelharvey Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. | about 1 year ago
Thank you for your opinion, although I believe you have misread and over stated the certain views expressed in it to support your particular position and understanding. I have no problem with that and stand behind the research I did in preparation for this report.
Reply By docbrown docbrown | about 1 year ago
I do not see where any points that you were challenged on were misread or over stated. Indeed, it seems to me that you simply do not like being shown to be incorrect. The Bible is specific, clear and consistent when it comes to homosexuality - to say otherwise is disingenuous at best. From the Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah to the apostle Paul pointing out to the Corinthians that practicing homosexuals will not receive the Kingdom of GOD, the Bible is crystal clear. It would appear that your "research" involved too much speaking with "theologians" and not enough time looking at what the bible actually says. You started with an opinion and sought out sympathetic "sources" for your story. It appears to me that TruthSeeker1984 "hit the nail on the head".

Kind Regards
Reply By LadyeCatte LadyeCatte | about 1 year ago
Marriage was not "established" by Christianity. Many cultures had rites of commitment and love long before the Crusaders showed up to "educate" them or missionaries to "reform".

I wasn't even born at the time of Dr. King's marches and speeches, but I can read.. and all the things TruthSeeker1984 --and you-- said are almost VERBATIM to the arguments given as to why blacks should not have equal status, too. Remember the anti-miscegenation laws? White supremacists and "Christian" Southerners, too, cited biblical passages:
Deuteronomy 7:3-4
Numbers 25:6-8
Deuteronomy 23:2
Numbers 12:1, and more.

I don't care if you find the comparison insulting. IT IS THE TRUTH. The KKK used the bible to hurt others, and I see the lessons of such vileness are forgotten so very soon.

I repeat: the bible says a LOT of things are forbidden: lies, fornication, homosexuality, working on Sundays, women speaking in church, blended cloths, etc. But for you or anyone else to dare throw stones when you know your own life is ONLY so comfortable because there are passages you choose ( yes, CHOOSE!) to ignore is the height of hypocrisy.

And, no, I can't say I'm a Christian. Raised a Baptist, walked away when I saw how false it all was, the doing of evil all week and then claiming "God forgave me" on Sunday.. and starting it all over again on Monday.

Gays deserved the right to have families the same as the rest of us... and the right to allow GOD to decide if the passages in the bible truly applied to any of their actions, same as the rest of us.
Reply By docbrown docbrown | about 1 year ago
I never said that marriage was established by Christianity, but by GOD himself in Eden when he brought Adam and Eve together. Christianity would not show up for thousands of years.

As to the verses you cite

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 There is absolutely nothing there referring to race. The context clearly is regarding the danger of Israel falling away from GOD because of false religious practices, not because of the color of their skin.

Numbers 25:6-8 See above

Deuteronomy 23:2 Again, nothing to do with race, but having to do with a child born out of wedlock.

Numbers 12:1 Please read the rest of that chapter. Aaron and Miriam obviously had the wrong view and were corrected by GOD.

Anyone using those verses, or any other for that matter, in an attempt to foment racial hatred is just plain WRONG. The Bible, in context, condemns racism period.

I do not choose which passages of the Bible to follow. It is true that, as a Christian, I view the Mosaic law and things such as animal sacrifices as no longer binding because the Christ fulfilled that law. However, when it comes to drunkenness, adultery, etc, a Christian does not have the luxury to pick and choose which they will or will not follow. After all, a Christian is by definition a follower of Christ.

As far as I am concerned homosexuals may do as they please. I have no right to tell them what to do with their lives and would not want to. I do not agree with the practice think it is wrong but I do not hate them. Neither do I support nor agree with any who would work violence on them in any way. Such individuals are placing themselves in the judgment seat which is reserved for GOD and are bullies plain and simple. Bullies, much the same as those that cannot make their point without name calling.

What I am saying is that the institution of marriage is originated by GOD and was between a man and a woman not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.
Reply By LadyeCatte LadyeCatte | about 1 year ago
The bible is specific, clear and consistent about a LOT of things. How well do you follow it ALL that you are, Jesus' own words, allowed to throw a stone, first or otherwise?

"Truthseeker1984" needs to step back about 2 decades and read his words in anti-minority editorials. Looks exactly the same, just replace "homosexual" with "negro".

Never thought I'd see so many black people siding with the KKK rather than those who fight for ALL minorities, not just the ones with extra melanin. But I guess the Tea Party meant it when they said they would "take this country back"... using the bigotry of black christians just like 1654's Anthony Johnson of Virginia. It only took ONE black man to send the rest of us into colonial purgatory. Read your history and see the abyss you're teetering near.
Reply By avoiceofashton avoiceofashton | about 1 year ago
To Doc Brown's comments: What "institution established by the Bible" are you talking about. Maybe you mean marriage? So you are saying that no one else besides the Bible peoples had marriage? And which marriage does the Bible establish? The man-woman one of Adam and Eve? or the man-woman-concubine one written about Abraham and Jacob? Both were sanctioned by God. Perhaps more ways of marriage are sanctioned than you realize.

I notice that you repeat that the Bible clearly condemns, yet I refuted those claims and you ignored my scholarship. Leviticus is all about how to worship, not about how to live daily life. It was written to the Levites whose inheritance was concerning temple/tabernacle worship.

Sodom was about greed and wickedness, not homosexuality- according to Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah. Jesus did not condemn specifically and while talking of man/woman cleaving to each other he also spoke at that same time of eunchs as another righteous pairing. Paul, relying on altered scriptures does condemn, as he also limits women in ways that are generally not accepted today.

Staking your whole claim of "clearly condemns" on Paul's words - not Jesus', Isaiah's, Jeremiah's, Ezekiel's, Moses' - is not a very clear or strong stance. To me it doesn't qualify as "no doubt".

Our "christian" traditions do condemn but that is only tradition unless it is supported by scripture. Paul is a fairly weak link in light of all the other prophets and scriptural accounts saying otherwise.

You may clearly condemn homosexuality based on your interpretation of the Bible, but that is not the same as saying the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. The Bible does not "clearly" condemn homosexuality. In my opinion, at best, only Paul condemns homosexuals as well as women. No one else in the Bible does. (For the record, I believe he was working from a skewed set of scriptures and his own cultural biases. I appreciate much of what he wrote, but he wasn't infallible.)

I am Christian and believe in the Bible and marriage. I also believe the Bible should be interpreted fairly, in context. It is time that the automatic assertions that it condemns homosexuality be impartially and fairly examined. To me they do not hold up under the light of truth.
Reply By docbrown docbrown | about 1 year ago
I do my very best to follow it ALL. At times I fail. As to the difference between race and homosexuality: 1. The Bible does not condemn someone for being a different race - indeed it says that anyone from any nation that works righteousness is acceptable to God. Any in the past that tried to use the Bible to support racism were reprehensible and not following the teachings of the Bible. 2. The Bible clearly condemns the practice of homosexuality.

As to the account of the first stone, there is some doubt that particular account was in the original texts - but that is a discussion for a different time. At any rate, there is no doubt that the practice of homosexuality is condemned in the Bible - in no uncertain terms. That does not mean that it is OK to attack or physically harm a homosexual, rather a christian would lovingly share the truths of GOD's word and help them to overcome this practice. Certainly not the actions of the KKK or any other racist group.

I work with a woman that is a lesbian, and have on occasion loaned her one of my vehicles and spent many hours on work projects. She respects my faith and I respect the freedom of choice that GOD has given her. There is no hate in my heart for her.

It is apparent that you have little knowledge of what true Christianity teaches. That is little wonder as there are many that profess to be Christian that do not practice it. Be that as it may, there was no hate in Truthseeker1984's post nor was there any in mine. I cannot say the same for yours. Name calling (equivocating opponents of same sex marriage with the KKK can be called nothing else) is spiteful and uncalled for in a civilized discussion.

In conclusion, it fascinates me that persons that are proponents of same-sex marriage have a tendency to trash Christians and the Bible. This is especially interesting when it is an institution established by the Bible that they are trying to hi-jack.
Posted By northsunm32 northsunm32 | about 1 year ago
An very interesting article. You rightly emphasize that Obama said that he was PERSONALLY in favor of same sex marriage. As you mention he did not promise any federal legislation on the issue. Indeed, he has also said it is an issue for states. In fact he is saying that the federal government will not intervene.
Reply By hmichaelharvey Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. | about 1 year ago
northsunm32, he indeed is not proposing any federal intervention in this issue. Yet he went to Hollywood and raised millions in the LGBT community.
Posted By ahol888 Adrian Holman | about 1 year ago
The Bible is not silent in regards to the same-sex issue. Jesus Himself implies that marriage is between a man and a woman (Matt. 5:31, Mark 10:5-10). Paul makes the same implications as well (I Tim. 3:12, Titus 2:4-5, Rom. 2:20-28). The problem for former Gov. Romney is that if more people had a clearer grasp on the Mormon beliefs by reading the Book of Mormon, such as they believe that any person that has darker pigmentation is cursed and that they believe the consequences for not following God is "darkness of skin." (II Nephi 5:21-25, Alma 3:6-9) If more people really knew what was written in the Book of Mormon, then they would not be able to vote for Romney with a clear conscience. That's why Romney lost many Southern states during the Primary because the Caucasian Southern Baptists view Mormonism as a cult. However, they still might vote for Romney due to their prejudice of race being more prevalent within their minds and hearts than their prejudice towards Mormonism. Just google "racist quotes from the book of mormon" because I have located about fifty verses in the Book of Mormon that shows that Mormons have a clear racial prejudice towards people of all colors.
Posted By ahol888 Adrian Holman | about 1 year ago
However, there was a confrontation during biblical times. In the Assyrian Empire, their last emperor was named Sardanapallus. He was a bisexual that became the leader of the Assyrians. Within ten years of his reign, the entire empire was wiped out. Therefore, there is historical precedent in regards to the #1 world empire being receptive towards homosexuality with the result that they were wiped off of the map.
Reply By hmichaelharvey Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. | about 1 year ago
Mr. Holman, you are talking about homosexuality in the context of bisexuality, while the point of the article you took exception to deals with same sex marriage. These are two different propositions.
Posted By Deepizzaguy George Vieto | about 1 year ago
As they would on television. "Tune in next week and find out."
Posted By ahol888 Adrian Holman | about 1 year ago
Sorry. Wrong historical story. The idea of same sex marriage was put into action through the pagan worship of Nimrod and Semiraimis as a means of population control.
Reply By hmichaelharvey Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. | about 1 year ago
Thanks Mr. Holman for this information.
Posted By Poeticjazztice Junior Campbell | about 1 year ago
Hi Harold. After a first reading, I want to congratulate you on a very good story!

You might be interested to know that I made the key point about the distinction between Obama's expression of personal support for homosexuality and a more official, binding declaration a few days ago, in my most recent Allvoices post. Don't worry it's not a copywrite issue :-).

Here's the link: http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/12175773-obamas-same-sex-support-has-he-sharply-cut-his-reelection-prospects
Posted By Poeticjazztice Junior Campbell | about 1 year ago
Goodness me! I had forgotten how close my title was to yours before someone changed it.
Reply By hmichaelharvey Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. | about 1 year ago
Junior, my computer was in the shop last week and I was unable to read your story. I do not think I would have weighed in on this topic had my computer being up and running last week. I decided to address it after the Sunday morning church services in the black community created such rancor. I'm on my way to read your article now. Thanks for the link. Also, as they say, "great minds think alike."
Posted By hmichaelharvey Harold Michael Harvey, J. D. | about 1 year ago
Junior, I enjoyed your very interesting story. Thanks for calling it to my attention. I recommend Junior Campbell's link above to the readers of this post.
Posted By MikeWon Mike Won | about 1 year ago
We could only hope and pray President Paul would rescue the USA from a severe catastrophe about a thousand thousand times worse than the WTC a decade ago...after Osama Obama is elected POTUS, how much worse it gitz is up to how much we can stomach.
Posted By StAlbansGirl11412 StAlbansGirl11412 | about 1 year ago
Show me a "Black Church" whose Minister of Music is straight, and I'll show you a liar. This is so ridiculous. What the "Black Church" needs to be doing - since they're apparently so high on marriage - is trying to get the huge percentage of young Black men in their congregations and their communities to "cotton to the idea" of marrying all these young Black women they're getting pregnant! How about that?
Reply By MikeWon Mike Won | about 1 year ago
Ron Paul has a better chance of being elected!
Posted By gingerriley gingerriley | about 1 year ago
Harold Michael Harvey, I’m glad to see you’re back in business.

The point you’ve made will no doubt be a focal point to the forth coming election. Gay marriage is obviously wrong and should not be condone in this 21st century. To cast all doubt aside, the Bible makes it explicitly clear, as it is written in Leviticus; you shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

The following can also be found in Romans;
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

I would have rather to see politicians remained discreet and keep those abnormal tendencies as an underground act.
Posted By avoiceofashton avoiceofashton | about 1 year ago
If you read Leviticus as God intended it, you would see that these chapters are all about how not to worship him. In both Leviticus references usually used, he is saying to not do as the heathen nations they were going to be living among - don't sacrifice children to Baal and don't lie man with man as a woman - to worship God. These are not acceptable ways to worship. Period. Be fair and keep God's word in context.

Historically it was okay in Israel to be a lesbian - the law, even the law overzealously interpreted and enforced - did not prohibit.

To understand Sodom and Gomorrah read the book of Jasher - the calling out of travelers was a tradition done by the whole town (men and women) and was about stealing their possessions to be shared by all (a platonic form of knowing). They were very wicked people, but not due to a homosexual nature. Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel condemns them - as did Jesus - but none of them condemned them for homosexuality.

Only Paul has. And Paul was a learned Greek scholar who was probably using the Septuagint translation that had been completed about 300 years before his time. That translation is at the root of our various translations. It mistranslated the Sodom experience with implying men only (not mankind) called out the visitor and than used the sexual connotation for "know" instead of the more correct platonic "know", meaning to learn of. They wanted to know what wealth the visitor had so they could steal it and distribute it among themselves. This was their established practice.

Not all of Paul's beliefs are truth- such as not allowing women to speak in church, or that they must cover their heads, etc. The Spirit is our final authority concerning any doctrine - whether written or spoken, it is the same.

As to the poor logic about Adam and Steve, to say that because some are homosexual does not mean that all are or should be. God needed to begin a people, thus a man and a woman.

Jesus spoke of marriage with a man and a woman AND then went on to discuss other peoples, such as eunchs, who were also godly. Otherwise he was silent on the issue. No condemnations, such as religious people today feel free to say. While he was "wo,wo-ing" the hypocrites and wicked of the day, did he add anything about homosexuality? No.

My question is: Are we so culturally biased that we can't see anymore what the gospel of Christ really is and isn't? It was a stretch for me. And BTW, I'm straight; this is not a self justification viewpoint.

There are legitimately some same sex individuals, but they are a minority of the population - always have been. Allowing them to be who they are does not condemn our world: we will not die out due to lack of children, we will not be overrun by gays and friends, and we will not earn a Sodom wipe out unless we do as they did.

Conversely, that which you resist, persists. Due to this concept, I believe all the "righteous" resistance is clouding the issue for our maturing youth. More are calling themselves gay than really are. And more are hiding in heterosexuality than really are. We are creating a problem by being in judgment and condemnation - something Jesus warned about repeatedly. Judge not... Judgment is mine....

Maybe we should start at the top and keep His first two commandments: Love God and love each other.
Reply By docbrown docbrown | about 1 year ago
Homosexuality is never OK according to the Bible. Were there certain historical events where Israelites were involved in this practice? Perhaps. Just because something happened does not make in OK. To illustrate: It would be ridiculous for someone to point to the holocaust and say that since it happened, all Germans are OK with genocide.

The context of the Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah is clear that one of the wicked practices they were condemned for was homosexuality.

It is a slippery slope to start removing things from the Bible. Today, what Paul said is torn from the pages of the Bible, tomorrow Peter...where does it stop? Next it is OK to rape, steal, murder, etc. I believe the entire Bible is GOD's word and not just portions of it. All too often, what the Bible has to say is marginalized and ignored, even by those who profess to follow it.

This has nothing to do with cultural bias, it is what the Bible says. Eunuchs were not homosexuals, but individuals whose sexual organs had been mutilated. A eunuch can also simply be a court official.

I agree that showing principled love to one another is an important part of being Christlike, but so is being obedient to GOD's word.
Reply By avoiceofashton avoiceofashton | about 1 year ago
About 400 BC a Israelite lesbian wanted to marry a Cohen, a high ranking royalty-like family line. This was prohibited because she was a lesbian. However, when the case was brought before the high priest ruler, it was allowed because it was not against the law to be a lesbian. This was not just a historical event, it was a law ruling in Israel.

Where does it say that lesbians were against the law of Moses? Where is the reference/scripture? You cite Leviticus but that is specifically about men. And it is specifically about heathen worship practices only. If Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses so that we don't sacrifice animals today, didn't he fulfill all the law of Moses? This prohibition against homosexuality, which I believe is misread and out of context, would also be done away with. It is not one of the commandments, and it is interesting that it isn't one of the commandments. The serious sexual sin of adultery is one of the 10, why isn't homosexuality? If it was such a great sin that it caused the destruction of two cities then why isn't it one of the 10 commandments? Maybe cause it isn't a sin?

And if it wasn't against the law, as the court ruled, why is Paul condemning it? Again this points to his fallibility in this area, not in all areas. No need to get fearful of a slippery slope. Do you allow women to speak in church, or cut their hair, or not cover their hair daily? That would be in violation of part of Paul's words also. If you ignore that part then you acknowledge that Paul could have gotten something wrong.

For that matter, where does the Bible say that a prophet is infallible? Peter taught incorrectly concerning the dietary laws and Paul corrected him. It is just as possible that Paul also could have taught incorrectly. This is why we have the scriptures AND the Spirit to lead us. If it is written wrong at times we can learn correctly and directly through the Spirit. Paul and John said that the children of God follow the Spirit. No need to fear a slippery slope when your feet are stable in truth through the Spirit.

The Bible was translated into Greek (Septuagint) and then into Latin and then into English (and other languages). The book of Jasher was translated just once, from the original Hebrew into English. It has a clearer and fuller picture of the people and wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah. It was not homosexuality. And when the three later major prophets spoke of the wickedness of S&G it was not about homosexuality - adultery yes, homosexuality no. (That's Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah).

Being familiar in general with languages, I can see how easy it would be to change the whole nuance of the S&G account with the mistranslation of those two words: "man" and "know". The same custom is explained in the book of Jasher and it does not involve homosexuality; it is about greed, theft and inhospitality.

I didn't say enunchs were homosexuals. My point was that there were more types of acceptable statuses that Jesus spoke of than just man and woman. In that discourse, He did not limit it as you have.

Feeling and sharing unconditional love for God and man is the higher law and makes careful, perhaps fear based, obedience a moot point. If we are following the Spirit as evidenced by our love (fruit of the Spirit) then we are following God's will in faith. It isn't designed to be an either/or scenario. But then I don't know what you mean by "principled love".
Reply By docbrown docbrown | about 1 year ago
By 400 BC the corruption of the Jewish system was well along. This is the same system that said that it was OK for children to leave parents destitute in their old age because everything the children had was "dedicated to GOD". At any rate, that ruling is Jewish tradition - not Scripture. Many things the Jewish nation did were shown by Jesus to be corrupt and incorrect.

True, from a literal viewpoint, the verses mention men only. However, Israelites would have understood this to be binding upon women as well. As far as to the Christian view of homosexuality after the Mosaic law, Romans 1:26,27 is pretty clear that homosexuality between men and women was wrong. Using your reasoning, it is OK to murder, be a drunkard, commit adultery, and defraud as in the same verses in 1 Corinthians in which he condemns homosexuality, he condemns these practices as well. Are we to conclude "it was just that crazy Paul, you know, the one that Jesus appeared to on the road to Damascus. No need to listen to him"

Paul was condemning the practice because he was inspired by GOD to do so. As to Paul being the only Bible writer in Christian times to condemn homosexuality, see Jude 7 which is obviously referring, in part, to homosexual practices.

The apostles did make errors at times, but the Bible records them for us as an example of what NOT to do. Jesus corrected the apostles about their improper ambition. When Paul corrected Peter about not eating with gentile Christians, it was recorded for our benefit. Where is Paul corrected for condemning homosexuality? He is not corrected because he was right.

The prohibition was not that women could not speak, but that they would not be teachers in the congregation and the head covering was in relation to prayer.

As to translation, it is inaccurate to say that it was translated from Greek to Latin and then to English. While this may be true of some Bibles from the middle ages, most Bibles translated today are translated from original language manuscripts and master texts with no intermediary language. The three primary languages that were used to write the Bible are Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Hebrew and Aramaic primarily for what most think of as the "Old Testament" and Greed for the "New Testament"

As to the three prophets you mention, I have no doubt that reference to wickedness would include homosexuality.

I put absolutely no stock in the "Book of Jasher", but in the Bible. The above mentioned citation from Jude shows that homosexuality was a large part of the reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah.

On the subject of Eunuchs, I acknowledged that there were some who were mutilated. Often times this happened to the person when they were young and/or it was forced upon them. The fact that they were mutilated is something that happened to them. Homosexuality is a practice that is condemned in scripture. The two are not comparable.

Principled love - Agape, as opposed to familial love or erotic love. This is the kind of love that causes us to look for the best interests of those around us rather than our own self-interest. The same kind of love shown by Jesus and his father for mankind.

True, our obedience should not be base fear, but there are laws and principles in the scriptures for a reason. We are to serve GOD on his terms not on those that we make up along the way and insist HE has to accept. Adam and Eve were told not to eat the fruit - they dis-obeyed and paid the penalty of death. Noah and his family obediently boarded the Ark - those that did not perished. Revelation 21:7 (and others) makes it clear that obedience is required. Obviously we cannot be perfectly obedient and will make mistakes, but twisting scripture to say that homosexuality is OK is far from a mistake due to imperfection.

We obviously are coming from two different places. I hold to the authority of the Bible as the final arbiter of right and wrong. Two people can never agree that something is genuine if they do not use the same touchstone.
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